Affirmative Action 8

[Maui]

My initial experience with Affirmative Action policies occurred at the first place that I applied for work when I graduated from school with an M.S. degree in Mechanical Engineering and a Ph.D. in Materials Science. I sent a resume to a prospective employer through a friend of mine who told me that they were looking for people with my background and credentials. My friend and I worked in the same lab in graduate school, and he thought that he could set up an interview for me with his employer, a major aluminum manufacturer. I don't remember his supervisor's name, so I'll refer to him throughout this thread as AL COA. He passed the resume on to AL COA, who informed him that I would not be interviewed because they were required to hire a minority for the position, and I didn't fit the profile.

The recent Supreme Court case involving Affirmative Action policies regarding college admission criteria will no doubt impact engineering programs for years to come. I'd like to know where engineers stand on this issue, and why. For each of you that responds, please include in your response an indication of whether or not you have directly benefitted from these policies. And has anyone else run into problems that are similar to the one that I describe above?


Maui

 

[TheTick]

Actually, having studied military history as an NROTC student, I am firmly in support of our military academies. An effective professional leadership corps is vital to our future security.

I would even say that the academy grads got a higher quality education than us ROTC's. Still, there was a pervading attitude among the academy "ring knockers" that ROTC's were not their equals. Gravity is a harsh mistress.

 

[IRstuff]

re:NBA, maybe... why are all these athletes getting the college scholarships while more deserving students are getting nada?

But that's hardly the point. Ward Connerly, etal., can always trot out success stories, but they are exceptions to the rule. Even with the NBA, having a grand total of about 29 franchises and maybe 13 players on the active roster for a total of 377 successes out of how many thousands are looking for a slot? This is a stereotype as well; how many NBA players do you know personally?

Does the average black person believe that the NBA success story is in any way applicable to himself or even he can succeed in the white world in general?

If you believe that blacks have it good and that everything is hunk-dory, don't be surprised the next time there's another LA riot.

TTFN

 

[melone]

IRstuff, I agree that stupid athletes shouldn't get scholarships for simply being able to hit a ball, run really fast, etc..

I am perplexed by your question, "how many NBA players do you know personally?" What does that matter? My scenario is still valid regardless if I happen to know any of the people.

With regards to having it "good" or "bad", I think that if the skill set has been demonstrated, then ANYONE can succeed in this society. I personally know individuals that would be considered "white-trash", and guess what, they don't get lowered standards to go to college. Heck, noone in their families has every gone to college. I myself, am the first one in my family to graduate college. Does that mean that I should have to perform to a different set of standards that minorities simply because I am a non-minority?

Perhaps we should stop treating people differently because we are so eager to appease! There is a lot to be said for pulling yourself up by your bootstraps and doing what it takes. Getting things that you didn't earn teaches a very dangerous lesson. The implication is that you don't have to be as good as everyone else, because you are a minority. Is that the message you really want to send? How is that helping bridge the gap of injustice? Aren't you simply perpetuating a negative stereotype of minorites?

Finally, with regards to the "LA riot". I am truly disappointed in our culture, that we would allow the lowest common denominator to become our guiding light. My 2 year old hits me when I put him in bed. Does that mean that I should stop putting him to bed because I don't want him to hit? Well, I don't want him to hit, right?

 

[brad]

Melone,
I appreciate your argument, and to anybody making that argument I would encourage them to read the book "Hardball". (There was a horrible movie loosely based on this book--don't hold it against the book itself)

The book itself is non-fiction, and one of the few books that has brought me to tears. It's about a middle-class suburban white man who coaches little league for a bunch of African-American children in Cabrini-Green (considered one of the roughest projects in America). It illustrates the pervasive hopelessness that some children take for granted as a part of their life. It's not just an issue of poverty that many children in America deal with; often it is so much worse than that.

Again, I think Affirmative Action is very little to address this. Is it potentially providing role models for these kids? Maybe. But not enough to help...

IRstuff--what about this point?--if do you acknowledge that an honest attempt at improving such conditions (if it were politically feasible) would do so much more than token programs at adulthood?

Brad

 

[IRstuff]

I don't have any objection to the other things that we need to do, but it's a very complicated problem and I would bet good money that we'd abandon it 30 years from now because it "failed."

I agree with your caveat about the issue of "politically feasible" since it's clear that we really have no idea how to pay for it nor do we have necessarily understand how to make it happen. You need to have:

> parents that want their children to succeed enough to instill the discipline required. I rarely see that level of dedication even in ostensibly middle-class families
> schools and teachers that are high-quality and motivated and that are MOTIVATING
> Educational oppportunities. This is tricky. Consider UM Law School with say, 100 black applicants and the same 10,000 white applicants. Where is the proper balance of encouragement and fairness? We can't expect that the newly minted pre-laws to be in the 90 percentile, so the bulk of them will still get rejected based on scores alone. Even if we assume the identical acceptance criteria, e.g., 3% acceptance, that means that less than 1 black applicant would get accepted out of the 100. Will they stay sufficiently focussed and stay the course against such overwhelming odds?

> Employment opportunities. I used to believe as Melone that ability would always win out and that society grades on merit only. This has been proven over and over again to be false. Equally qualified blacks and women do not get the same pay or opportuniies. Ala the ROTC remark, we even know that within the category of "white" there is a discrimination in favor of taller, better looking people.

> Positive role models. Naturally, these need to be black or female as required for the targeted group. Even on Barney, girls choose nurturing and caregiver careers while boys choose masculine careers. It's quite insidious.

> Money to pay for all of the the above.



TTFN

 

[PSE]

It has been interesting to see how many of the posts here have focussed on the (to use the PC term) African-American minority instead of minorities in general. The posts also show how statistics can "prove" points depending on how they are manipulated. On a global scale, caucasians are not a majority so do you apply affirmative action on a global scale? If you use a national population scale, how do you contend with foreign applicants? Non-discrimination falls under ethical practice and I do not feel that it can be effectively legislated (keywork "effectively&quot. Possibly good in the beginning, is it now a societal crutch.

IRstuff, I wonder if affirmative action will in fact be abandoned in 30 years or so because by then, whites may no longer be the population majority.

Interesting comments on childhood and environment. While (to use and manipulate a phrase from a rather famous document), we all may be created equal, we don't all end up equally accomplished. Affirmative action deals with race, religion, sex, and creed, not about talent or availability. It may become easy for corporations to appear segregated simply because there was no minority candidate available or meeting the skills needs. How far afield would a firm have to search? Locally? Statewide? Nationally? Globally?

How can such legislation be considered successfull when it is virtually impossible to determine compliance?

Regards,

PSE

"If you try to please everybody, nobody will like you"

Murphy's Laws

 

[brad]

PSE--
In this whole discussion, I have been careful to avoid racially-specific comments except when dealing with the specifics of the UM case. It happens that the pervasively poor are disproportionately minorities. I have tried to focus on this situation--fixing this situation will fix much of the ills which face the African-American and Hispanic communities. Addressing the symptoms of this, rather than the cause, is a large part of why minorities as a group have not derived more significant benefit from such affirmative action programs.

Gosh, I'm starting to sound like a bleeding heart ...

Brad

 

[IRstuff]

Talent by itself is insufficient. Imagine if Stephen Hawking were born in Bangladesh; would he wind up in the same place he is now?

I'm not sure that it's simply a question of minority or majority. Even with whites in a non-majority percentage of the population, it will be decades before the decision maker population reflects the population overall.

By the same arguments for fairness based purely on test scores, it's pretty clear that even with a fairly sizable population of blacks, UM Law School only had 21 black applicants, even though, thet were effectively guaranteed acceptance. Being in the majority does not imply that the black applicant pool will magically increase to 10,000.

TTFN

 

[melone]

So why are the black applicants more valuable simply because they are black?

 

[IRstuff]

I don't consider them to be of any different value. My primary concern is a selfish one; the preventive of race-based riots. For whatever reason, right or wrong, true or not, there is a class of people in our society that feels discriminated against and in general, oppressed.

I can't say that I completely disagree with that assessment. Clearly, a black person has a higher probability of being arrested and/or harassed by the police. It's been well demonstrated as mentioned earlier that any demographic group not in power is discriminated against, e.g, blacks, women, ROTC grads, the old and ugly, etc.

Of all these groups, blacks are by far the worse off and by far more likely to to believe that the oppression is overwhelming and therefore more likely to lash out. Having driven past burning buildings and a drive-by shooting at workers trying to go home as well as experiencing National Guard troops patrolling the street in front of work, it's clear that the American Dream is a failure for blacks and they need to believe that it's real.

TTFN

 

[melone]

So why reward undersirable behavior with special treatment? By that argument, criminals should rule since we don't want to make them mad, they might start hurting innocent people.

 

[IRstuff]

That's fine if there are fewer criminals than cops.

Plus, it's not a question of reward, but prevention. Moreover, its also a question of ultimate cost. To allow such a large percentage of the population to drain our public services and not contribute to the tax pool is foolhardy at best.

TTFN

 

[melone]

So are we truly concerned about these people, or just keeping our taxes low? From the last few posts, it sounds more like appeasement, instead of help. Why don't we work harder at eliminating the hopelessness by creeating programs that teach young underprivledged (notice that race / religion / creed /etc. is NOT a factor) to become useful members of society?

If we are truly concerned about leveling the playing field, let's stop thinking in these conventional, and unproductive ways. Why not make mentoring / tutoring / etc. a requirement for anyone that attains a position of "success"? I admit that most will scoff at the idea of helping their fellow man (or woman), but this type of solution is no more difficult to implement than legislating the affirmative action philosophy. By forcing the stereotypical white-powerful males to interact with the oppressed, they will be forced to see these people as fellow human beings. Only resentment, and feelings of betrail, injustice and racsim can be gained by simply forcing minorities down the throats of the people in a position of power.

 

[TheTick]

Where do the words "American dream" appear in our beloved constitution?

As I recall, it's "...life, liberty, and pursuit of happiness." It's not "delivery" or "attainment" or "guarantee" of happiness.

Gravity is a harsh mistress.

 

[brad]

Melone for Congress! (the presidency will have to wait a few terms). Your sentiments in the above agree with mine.

The median household cost within a five-mile radius of my house is pushing $250K. Do the math--most people who I mingle with day-to-day do very well. The few minorities that are in my town are as well-off or better than I, and there kids won't likely NEED the quotas to go to college.

Yet only about 20 miles from my community is downtown Detroit, with slums, homelessness, and violence. I've seen first-hand, several times, what an effect working in a homeless shelter or soup kitchen has on people in my community.

When poverty is just a statistic on paper that one never encounters (or an occassional "bum" that one can drive by), it's easy to ignore. When it becomes a lovely 8-year-old girl who's thanking you for feeding and clothing her, her parents, and her younger siblings it suddenly demands a bit more out of you individually. I don't believe that this 8-year-old is worried about her slot in UM's law school in 15 years. She's much more worried about getting through the next ten years without falling into the trap her parents are currently in. Sadly, we're spending too much time (societally) worrying about 15 years from now, instead of the next ten years which are far more critical.
Brad

 

[Maui]

The responses that I received from this post have been enlightening. Thanks to you all for contributing.


Maui

 

[RobertoMiguel]

I guess I'll add my own two cents' worth to this discussion, if only to add my case to the tally. Affirmative Action was a big deal when I was in school (in Amherst, MA), it was present at hiring time for recent college grads, and then virtually non-existent throughout my professional (lack of a) career.

I suspect (as a former insider) that engineering outfits w/ ties to government, either directly (eg, TVA) or indirectly (eg, Raytheon) could earn brownie points by instituting this form of sexual and racial discrimination in their policies, for promotion and hiring. No one has ever admitted to hiring me as a quota filler, though I have persistently inquired on the nature of my selection.

I have also had a devil of a time trying to stick around wherever I worked. If I was doing fine, they wanted to send me some place else, physically. If there was no place else to be sent to, my job came to an end all the same. Now, w/ so many employers on my resume, companies are hesitant to hire me in a direct, permanent staff capacity.

My own beliefs are these: AA only hurts people in the long run, same as bilingual education. Even if it was true that there was discrimination AGAINST (as opposed to in-favor-of) minorities and women in the engineering workplace, it is preferrable to fix it by stimulating the DEMAND for engineering jobs in the minority/women population than by ensuring the SUPPLY of these jobs to less deserving candidates.

And while we're on the subject of diminishing returns, so called progressive (income) taxation has similar counterproductive results: namely, regressive motivation. I don't understand how so many people can see this in the AA example but not in all these other similarly wrong policies.

Roberto Sanabria

 

[Maui]

Are there any predictions on how the Supreme Court will rule on this issue? A decision is supposed to be rendered later this month. According to the news media the Court appears to be evenly split with Sandra O'Connor casting the deciding vote. Your insights?


Maui

 

[TheTick]

I think the New York Times displayed affirmative action at its finest!

All this machinery making modern music can still be open hearted.