Alternative fuels and percieved cost savings

[SomptingGuy]

http://www.hybridcars.com/news/news.php?news_id=628

Maybe I'm being cynical here but the thermal efficiency of a power station, minus the power distribution losses would make a plug-in car less thermally efficicient overall than a good diesel or a regular hybrid. So how is the plug-in charging cost-effective. The usual answer: tax.

In the UK diesel for use on farms is virtually untaxed (3p/litre) coompared with diesel for road use (49p/litre). It contains a special dye to make it easy to identify.

I wouldn't be suprised if a similar two-tiered taxation suddenly appeared for vehicles charged up from the mains? It could be illegal to fit a regular UK 3-pin plug to a car - only government-approved new plugs could be mandated that only fit special high-tax meters.

Mind you, the same arument holds for all those people who've switched to LPG to reap the savings. Once the tax catches up, they'll be paying the same.

 

[GregLocock]

Always track the well to wheel efficiency. Plug in hybrids are LESS efficient on that basis than pure electrical cars.

Pure NIMBYism.

Cheers

Greg Locock

Please see FAQ731-376 for tips on how to make the best use of Eng-Tips.

 

[RobWard]

There are also the pollutant concerns to take into account.
Some of the electricity could come from renewables, and the non renewable power stations are supposedly getting cleaner and greener.

If people start switching to anything that cuts the government's tax revenues significantly they'll no doubt find a way of ramping up a new tax to make us worse off than before.
And tell us that it's for our own good.

At least I don't live in London and have to worry about Red Ken as well....

It's funny how a lot of people go on about hybrids saving the planet.
On a long distance journey the diesels get much better mileage.
I could drive the few hundred miles into central London in my diesel and have to pay the "congestion" charge, but if I went in a hybrid on the same journey, I'd not have to pay the charge because I was being "green", even though I'd caused more pollution.

From a technology point of view however, I think hybrids are fascinating, though has anyone done a study into the whole life pollution cycle of hybrids? Those battery packs won't last forever...


"I love deadlines. I love the whooshing noise they make as they go past." Douglas Adams

 

[rdd48856]

Not if you were driving a Diesel hybrid...and polution is not only CO2....

 

[Warpspeed]

Compressed Natural Gas (CNG) looks promising, depending upon how much per Kwh your do it yourself very high pressure natural gas compressor costs to run. At off peak tariff rates it looks reasonably attractive.

As soon as the gubberment start whacking road tax onto it, that will kill it stone dead.

The prospect of numerous fires and explosions in suburban garages all over the place do not exactly fill the authorities or the insurance companies with joy.

But other than that, CNG is one possible candidate.

 

[waross]

Not to "Tack on" a question, but in line with preceived cost savings, does any-one have a link that shows a good cross comparison of the various fuels by their usual method of sale?
Say 1000 Kilo Watts of electricity compared to the same amount of energy produced by an efficient engine By gallons of Gasoline or diesel fuel, Pounds of propane, and/or Cubic Feet of Natural gas.
Even a btu comparison, showing each fuel in it's normal unit of sale.
Thanks

 

[patprimmer]

That still is not a true comparison as some fuels give more miles per btu due to things like ignition method, compression ratio, pumping losses, and A:F mixtures that will burn.

Regards

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[crysta1c1ear]

The Ricardo announcement is just an official announcement that somebody is working on plug-in hybrids. They aren't the first. Merc for example has some.

You can read a fair bit about plug-in hybrids on the CalCars website. That is what we looked at when this issue came round last time.

http://www.calcars.org

Due to the way Americans test fuel economy, Toyota just deprived Americans of the EV button on the Prius. The EV button stands for Electric Vehicle, though you might be forgiven for thinking it stood for European Version. You can run the Prius for short distances as an electric vehicle by pressing the EV button, eg if you want to silently run over the neighbours dog for fouling your lawn, instead of scaring it off.

Then, to extend the range, just add more batteries.
To make it a plug-in hybrid, just recharge it overnight.
Like the CalCars guys say, "it's not rocket science".

Funny how we get concerned about fuel economy and well-to-wheels efficiency etc as soon as hybrids are discussed, while treating racing as a noble sport the rest of the time. I think the real point is that if people have access to a cheap energy source, let them use it. Lighting motorways at night because you cannot turn a nuclear power station off for several hours is wasteful. Powering a car instead is clearly better.

There are occasions where plug-in hybrids make sense and we shouldn't knock them and prevent development on account of the situations where they don't make sense.

 

[SomptingGuy]

Not to "Tack on" a question, but in line with preceived cost savings, does any-one have a link that shows a good cross comparison of the various fuels by their usual method of sale?
Say 1000 Kilo Watts of electricity compared to the same amount of energy produced by an efficient engine By gallons of Gasoline or diesel fuel, Pounds of propane, and/or Cubic Feet of Natural gas.
Even a btu comparison, showing each fuel in it's normal unit of sale

Such a comparison would only make sense before any taxes are added. Production, transportation (and cleanup) costs only.

 

[rockster01]

I agree

 

[waross]

good point, SomptingGuy, but I am looking for a figure to add the local taxes to.
I know the price, tax included of a Kilowatt of electricity.
I know the price, tax included of a Gallon of diesel fuel.
I know the price, tax included of a a tank of butane.
I'd like to know how many kilowatts of electricity equals how many pounds of butane, etc. Then every one can add prices and local taxes and do a rough comparison.