Am I doing the right thing 19

[dvanommen]

I'm a new engineer at a small company which really isn't set up for engineering work. It's mostly a job shop, manufacturing parts that have been engineered by larger companies. They have been awarded a couple of contracts over the past decade, but there isn't a significant amount of experience doing internal engineering projects. I was hired in May after graduating from university, and I was brought into a project that was nearing the end of the design phase. Now it's going out for product certification testing. The CEO and lead engineer (who doesn't have any formal engineering training) is guiding me on this project. If we just focus on the project at hand, there are quite a lot of things he's doing and asking me to do that I don't feel ethically stable on. For example, our customer's approved qualification testing plan document specifically states that all of the units we send to be tested must be production quality units. However, most of the detail parts and subassemblies that make up the final unit are test parts that were made as design validation, not made through the proper methods of tracking material and parts used, having quality inspection buy-off on all stages of the process, etc. We're doing all that now, after everything has already been completed, which leads to a lot of guesswork (we can't verify hardware lot number, for example, so we just pick one that was ordered around the time we think the units were assembled). These certainly aren't production quality units to me.

Another example of this is minimum electrical clearance on electrical assemblies (for the same product I discussed above). We're performing high voltage tests at 1000 V through the unit to ensure there aren't short/open circuits anywhere. I calculated MEC based on IPC-A-610, and there is a part of the design which violates MEC for 1000 V. However, operating voltage is 200 V, and MEC isn't violated at that level. I was instructed to not worry about it because MEC is for operating voltage, not testing voltage, even though the document states "rated voltage" (which to me is whatever our tests run at) as the basis for MEC.

All of this comes down to us being late for certification testing. The unit was supposed to be sent for testing weeks ago, but that kept getting pushed back because of design changes and manufacturing. So it seems like instead of admitting fault and doing it right, the lead engineer wants to try to figure out a way around the system to make the incorrect design work.

Am I right to be concerned about all of this? I feel like the whole situation is unethical, but I don't have a very solid footing for making an argument against it to my boss. I keep getting told this is how it's done all the time in industry. Yesterday I told myself I was going to look for a new job. But I wonder if I'm being rash and getting worked up about nothing. Please share your advice

 

[dvanommen]

Thank you all for your feedback and guidance on this issue. I made the choice to leave the company on short notice. I wasn't able to move forward with the project at hand knowing how it was being processed, and even beyond that particular project, there were quite a lot of issues I had with motives behind how the company was being run. So I didn't see any benefit in continuing there any longer. It wasn't the easiest choice to make but I know it was the right choice. So thank you again for helping me get to that point.

 

[dvanommen]

I have to ask, now, if anyone is aware of any entry level opportunities for mechanical engineers in the Wichita, KS area, please let me know. I have applications out already to 6 different companies, but any other options I can look into, I certainly will. My interests are largely in aviation, but I'm skilled at mechanical design for other applications as well.

 

[Agent666]

Hopefully they 'get' why you left, somehow I think they think it was you with the issues though. Good decision.

 

[Sparweb]

Dvanommen,

I started writing my answer before reading all the way... now I see you've quit already. Hopefully my answers below still stand, and are helpful. Best of luck to you, and I hope your next employer is better organized. It's best to land in a fairly structured environment when you are early in your career. Then you can see a process "that works".

I have done a lot of aero product tests. Conformity to design is crucial. Early in my career I let a few tests get delayed when inspection caught discrepancies. It was usually an error on the drawing (my drawing!), but still, I don't ever want that to happen to me again.

To underline, perhaps a bit too starkly, an 8130 Form is a legal document. To forge or sign one falsely is therefore a _____. You get my drift. Clearly no one in that company was actually authorized to sign one or had any clue what it means. This document tells you who does.

Lots of aviation companies to choose from in Wichita. Bombardier, Hawker/Beech, Textron and Cessna all have a big presence there. That said... are you willing to relocate? The majority of aero engineering projects done in the US (and Canada, hint hint) are not done by the OEM's but subcontracted or carried out for owners/operators doing their own thing. There are engineering organizations in every major city on the continent.


No one believes the theory except the one who developed it. Everyone believes the experiment except the one who ran it.
STF

 

[CWB1]

You ultimately decide upon the environment you want to work in, however I'd caution against letting this group get you too worked up on this matter as many here bounce between both extremes on ethical matters. Given the limited info in this thread I dont see any ethical issues. When customers specify "production quality" units for testing they're typically not looking for traceability to the n^th degree bc testing will usually destroy products, they simply want a production released product rather than risk wasting their time and test dollars on an in-development project. In many cases, customer design specs are also over-defined leading to handshake/gentlemen's/etc agreements on acceptability criteria after an engineering spec review. Much as I hate rules of thumb in engineering, a good one for business is that most companies are overconstrained by requirements and process. Here in the auto industry for example I'd wager no vehicle has ever been built to meet every one of a major car company's design requirements and often not even the govt's. As to signing certification or other legal documents, they're commonly prepared by either a test technician or other engineer, don't sweat them unless the boss asks you to lie after the fact. Review them, strikethrough and initial the errors, write-in/correct and initial as necessary, and sign the document you're comfortable with. Rarely will you ever sign a "perfect" document.

Unless you've resigned already I'd suggest sticking it out at least a full year or until you encounter an actual ethical challenge or other valid reason to leave. After a year or two you can claim "learned the job, bored, no room for advancement" and be somewhat believable. Leaving after only a few months seems flaky to most hiring managers and 3rd-4th quarter hiring is often slow. If you have left already I'd advise caution when asked why. From limited info it doesnt sound like you've actually encountered an ethical issue, bottom line is you left bc you didnt trust an established company in a small city, likely a small niche that others will know and/or contact.

 

[dvanommen]

I understand that I've put myself in an awkward situation with future employers. It looks bad (or, at the very least, questionable) to see someone quit spontaneously after two months of working his first job in the industry. However, what it came down to for me is that I wasn't comfortable with what I was being asked to do, and I wasn't comfortable with the proposed solutions. There is a professional code of ethics and a personal one, and if something violates my personal beliefs of how a job should be run, I can't get past that. That's not how I want to perform in my engineering career, and so whether the issue at hand was a serious ethical problem or not for the industry, it doesn't align with my own sense of right and wrong. There's a place for being able to deviate from your design, and as far as I see it, that is only when it is a purely internal project with no buy-in from any third party customer. If another customer has given specifications on how a project should be handled, there should be no deviation from those requirements without prior approval from that customer and all paperwork in order before moving forward.

 

[berkshire]

dvanommen,
If asked by another prospective employer why you quit , just tell them you refused to sign off on a non conforming part. Depending on the culture of the company you are applying at it will assist you in getting hired , If it does not , you don't want to work for them anyway.
B.E.

You are judged not by what you know, but by what you can do.

 

[drawoh]

dvanommen,

If you tell someone you refused to sign off marginally ethical paperwork, and they hire you, they are the people you want to work for.

--
JHG

 

[dvanommen]

Thanks for the encouragement, berkshire and drawoh

 

[CWB1]

There's a place for being able to deviate from your design, and as far as I see it, that is only when it is a purely internal project with no buy-in from any third party customer. If another customer has given specifications on how a project should be handled, there should be no deviation from those requirements without prior approval from that customer and all paperwork in order before moving forward.

In a perfect world I would agree but reality is rarely perfect. More often than not you'll find all manner of issues with customers, colleagues, and managers that prevent this. If I had a nickel for every last minute design change made bc of a two-person conversation with no documentation that didnt involve a working-level engineer...

Unless you were explicitly asked to falsify paperwork or do something that's genuinely unethical then I would forget any further mention of ethics and move on. Empty accusations are a serious matter and most hiring managers will immediately start digging to see if they're true to protect their employer and themselves from the possibility of future accusations against them. Scarily enough, empty accusations are actually pretty common today.

Good luck regardless.

 

[D Scullion]

I'd agree entirely with CWB1. I was in a somewhat similar position when i started out and at times did feel I was taking a bit of a gamble but I stuck with the company for a few years and learnt a lot. For me the key issue is that it is a small company, in order to survive and grow they have to take the lowest cost, fastest, easiest route to deliver and often that means taking calculated risks with loose interpretations of customer requirements. You are right not to sign anything that would be legally compromising however the CEO knows the industry and customers better than you, he knows where the legal and ethical boundaries are and where he can push on them. Ultimately it is his company, his risk.

There are many important safety critical procedures and documentation required in NPI in all industries but there is also an awful lot of BS and red tape, I found the experience in a small company helps you workout how to cut through a lot of the BS. That is experience and now-how I have seen lacking in many 'big business' engineers.

That all said, when it comes to career advice, my advice is always trust your gut. It sounds like this company wasn't right for you so you made the right decision. As for moving forward, be honest but not too specific eg - "I realised the company wouldn't take my career in the right direction, no experienced engineer mentor, no training opportunities etc" and even take some responsibility for the failure "I should have done more to research the company - lesson learned - that's why I am applying to you now etc." Having interviewed many engineers myself I find a little self-deprecating honesty makes someone appear more trustworthy. Best of luck and remember, what is for you won't go by you

 

[BridgeSmith]

"You are right not to sign anything that would be legally compromising however the CEO knows the industry and customers better than you, he knows where the legal and ethical boundaries are and where he can push on them. Ultimately it is his company, his risk."

Unless he just hires inexperienced, unsuspecting people to be a patsies if something fails with catastrophic results.

 

[SandCounter]

Someone close to me left an HR job over ethical concerns. When asked in the next job interview why she left on short notice, she just said she left for ethical reasons and left it at that. It shows that she was uncompromising where it counts and also was not willing to air a former employer's dirty laundry with others. She got the job.

dvanommen, let us know how the job situation turns out. I think it would be encouraging for the rest of us to hear a happily-ever-after story after standing your ground on ethics. Thanks for doing the right thing.

I used to count sand. Now I don't count at all.

 

[LionelHutz]

Just to point something out. rated voltage = highest operating voltage, not the insulation test voltage or any other higher level test voltage. So 200V wass correct in the example you gave.

 

[Terratek]

"drawoh, you're right that I'm the closest thing to a licensed PE here" So you're not licensed, then?

If you're not licensed, then there is no concern with sealing something you don't feel comfortable with...Oh well, you already quit so it's a moot point.

What's the deal with all these rookie engineers taking jobs at non-engineering companies and then wondering if they should do this or that for ethical reasons? If you want to be an engineer, go work for an engineering firm, get mentored, get licensed, get some more experience and then go be "head engineer" at some non-engineering company. Or better yet, keep working with an engineering firm. This kind of thing pops up all the time on this forum.

 

[GregLocock]

So non PEs don't have ethics? Get over yourself.

Cheers

Greg Locock


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[Terratek]

What is there to get over? There is more to engineering ethics than just how you feel about it. In fact, ethics can be very grey, hence the OP's dilemma. Perhaps you are the engineer that needs to get over self (no PE?). Some formal ethics training and mentor-ship from experienced engineers (usually a PE would be preferable given the personal weight carried with the license) will get you further than your gut.

Now if you are suggesting that we all concern ourselves with the entirety of the ethics of the companies where we work (accounting, environmental, HR, political, etc.), than I guess a PE is not relevant. If you are an engineer concerning yourself with engineering functions, then a PE, on average, would be better at coaching ethics than a non-PE. That's just facts of life, not a personal thing I need to get over.

Furthermore, having mentor-ship for technical applications would help the rookie engineer better understand the real safety risks involved in a situation. Totally no need for a PE in an exempt industry here. But working for an exempt industry with other experienced engineers around and being a lone engineer wolf in a contractor shop are two totally different situations. This is more to my point, but somebody got sensitive...

 

[IRstuff]

Damn well better have ethics; my clearance depends on it.

TTFN (ta ta for now)
I can do absolutely anything. I'm an expert!

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[CWB1]

If you're not licensed, then there is no concern with sealing something you don't feel comfortable with...
What's the deal with all these rookie engineers taking jobs at non-engineering companies and then wondering if they should do this or that for ethical reasons? If you want to be an engineer....

No, there's no concern over sealing anything with a nonexistent stamp however there is always the concern that folks may do something unethical such as signing a false statement and end up in a heap of legal trouble.

What's the deal with folks assuming PEs are the only engineers held accountable for their ethics and actions?

 

[Terratek]

PE's tend to interface with the public more than exempt industries. So ethics is just more part of daily dealings PE's. No way I am going to tell a non PE anything since they know as much and probably more about ethics than PE's. But that is just my uninformed opinion.