Amada Fol3015aj or Bystronic Bysprint Fiber 3kw ?

[jetray]

Hi All,
Does anyone have any first hand experience running or repairing
any brands of fiber laser cutting machines. We are evaluating the Amada
Fol3015aj and the Bysprint Fiber 3kw.
These are 2 very different machines from a feature point of view.
Power consumption of the Amada is 95kw input for the machine beacause of the
linear drives + 20kw for the laser source - is it really going to cut
that many more parts for 10 times the power consumption ?.
Would it be correct in thinking the Bystronic is less accrurate and slightly
out of date because of a drive system using rack and pinion and only encoders
direct on the motors compared to Linear drives and direct Linear scales.
Whilst Both these should cut any standard parts well enough we do cut
large runs of 0.35mm and 1.0mm sheet parts that require key dimensions
better than + - 0.1 mm and in particular less than 10 micron burrs on underside
anything bigger requires the parts to be deburred by hand. So a consistent clean
cut over the run is important.
Any advice / comments would be appreciated.

Regards
JetRay

 

[Wavelength1]

Hello JetRay,

Both are good machines and with proven motion systems. Neither are limited in achieving cutting
speeds that a Fiber Laser source can produce, so either motion system will work and produce better accuracies than the +/-.1mm that you are looking for. The real questions come from the economic side
of the comparison. What are the investment cost differences to purchase the machines? What does it
cost to run each machine on an hourly basis? What is the impact of these two aspects on the cost per part and how does it effect the return on investment? I think if you answer these questions then you will start to arrive at your decision.

Regards,

Wavelength1

 

[IconFab]

Be sure to look at Trumpf. Trumpf has been in the Disk Fiber business for years while the companies you just mentioned just jumped in.

As far as maintenance, Trumpf cannot be beat.

Do your homework, see for yourself.

 

[jetray]

Hi Wavlength1,
Yes it will come down to how much each machine can produce in a given hour
relative to is capital and running costs, we are evaluating that now. With 2 machines
that are quite different in spec and performance on paper. It would be nice to here from anyone
using either one of these models on a daily basis and how they have been going. what the part consistency
is like over a run of parts etc.
Also a consideration is if a particular model is nearing the end of it's development or a new model is
coming out, it's not good to end up with a machine and performance that is out date within a year,
you would hope by paying a bit more it would keep up with future models for a bit longer rather than being
the slowest thing around.

 

[krugtech]

unless you do something crazy like run the machine w/o a dust collector you will find the rack and pinion system to be accurate and bulletproof. With just a little cleaning and care they'll last forever. I kind of like the rotary encoders, the linear encoders are more prone to damage. The newer linear encoders seem more robust but only time will tell. The Bysprint was designed as a simple reliable high speed machine. Mating it w a good fiber source is a good thing. 10 yr old bysprints easily hold the tolerances you need.

Chris Krug

http://krugtech.com/

Maximum Up-time, Minimum BS

 

[slyedog]

Jetray drop me a line I am your Amada Laser Consultant and live in Salem. Doug Slye (503) 569-6943

 

[olddognewtricks]

Jetray, why have you limited you consideration to Bystronics and Amada? Iconfab mentioned Trumpf and Mazak has a very broad line of lasers both fiber and Co2. Mazak machines have a very respectable reputation for cut quality and accuracy.

 

[jetray]

Hi All,
Thanks Chris for the info regarding the Bysprint drive system as we were a little worried
about it and how it would perform over a long period. I know what you mean about linear encoders
we have a Byspeed with the new type linear encoders and are getting out of tollerance refference error y
y messages all of a sudden that has been some trouble to solve - they definitely play up more than
rotary encoders.

IconFab - with regards to Trumpf - we did have a look at Trumpf, We know they very good machines
with exceptional cut quality, maybe a bit too complicated and therefore the service guys in our
country seem to have a bit of trouble keeping them going or even know what is wrong with them
in the first place. Also the local? maybe gobal? service policy seems to be owners are discouraged
from having anything to do with even low level repairs when a service tech isn't avaiable.
I had been told also the Trumpf is a disk laser, not a true fiber laser and requires more
maintenance because of the need to replace flashlamps every 10,000 hours although I have not had time
to check this out. The biggest thing that have put us off is 2 compeditors near us one with 3 machines
the other with 2 - both say you need at least 2 machines because one is down for repairs nearly every week - although they both say they still buy more when the time comes.

Olddognewtricks - The reason Mazak is out of the picture for us is nearly no laser support here - local agent is an expert only on machining centres etc - the only hypergear installed here never ran properly
from brand new and is not currently in operation. They fly guys from Japan to change a set of mirrors.

The main reason for considering only these 2 brands is we already have lasers and or press brakes
from both companies

- Jetray

 

[krugtech]

That's very interesting about the encoders on the byspeed. I had a customer have one go bad, Bystronic tried to sell him the "upgraded" encoders for about 10k us. We figured the old one lasted long enough so we just put a new strip in for much less. We were told the upgrade held up better, interesting to hear you have problems.

As for service, the machine tool industry needs to stop being so greedy and look what happened in the auto industry. If the hood of my ford can only be opened up by ford, I will not buy a ford as I like to fix things myself. A large majority of the field techs simply do not care about the equipment as much as the owner of that equipment and the owner will try to find someone who cares or do the work himself..... if it's even possible. The machine manufacturer wants revenue from service so what they're doing now is locking out the customers from working on their own machine. If you buy any machine, make sure you fully own it. Make sure you get all passwords, card keys, manuals, anything that allows the machines owner to fully access the machine for repair/service. The machine owner should have a choice as to who works on the machine. What happens 15 years from now when the machine manufacturer "no longer supports" and all the keys/passwords/security cards/dongles/ required to keep the machine running simply no longer exist?

Chris Krug

http://krugtech.com/

Maximum Up-time, Minimum BS

 

[krugtech]

Also- be sure you fully understand the dancers of working with the wavelength the fiber lasers emit. The difference of opinion alone is enough to raise some concern. And make sure the manufacturer will sell you parts without forcing one of their techs on you. The customer should get whatever parts he wants, whenever he wants. Anything less just screws up production and no one likes that.

Chris Krug

http://krugtech.com/

Maximum Up-time, Minimum BS

 

[palms]

Good machines to review. With the Amada you may have to put in a very expensive foundation and the others are right, the kVA is quite high which will drive up costs. Bystronics is not bad, just a lot of moving parts to take care of. The easiest to run, low cost of ownership and they have 3 models of fiber laser cutters is Prima. Lots of automation choices and it has the most versatile design. When looking at lasers, break the search into 2 pieces: the resonator (bystronic and prima use IPG, the best) and Amada uses JDS Uniphase, do not know much about JDSU. AND the second piece is how the laser is constructed. Do I need a special foundation, high electricity usage, who makes the control, is it easy to get a full size sheet in it if the shuttle table goes down? Little things like that add up. Most of all get internet service as an option, it works well.