An American Engineer in Europe 7

[J2D2]

Hello everyone!

I’ve lurked here for years, and my gratitude to the people of this forum cannot be overstated. I thank you all!

I finally made an account to ask a question that is specific to me. I could not find answers elsewhere. I would greatly appreciate any advice.

Straight to the core question:
I am about to entertain a job offer at a large international firm in a German-speaking country, and their prime interest in me is because I hold two American professional engineering licenses (one of them is a California Civil P.E.). Despite having these rare (for this country) qualifications, I am on the back foot as I go into negations for many reasons. What are some commitments I should avoid making, and what are some red flags I should watch for?

Now for more background info:
Last November I finished a master’s degree at a German university (taught in English) and I have been looking for a job since then with no real success. The pandemic, my relatively weak German (B1-B2), and lack of local experience are factors that count against me. I do have eight years of experience doing structural engineering for large residential to small and medium sized commercial buildings, but I’ve never worked on mid-rise buildings (unless you count 4-stories of wood above a composite podium “mid-rise”).

This year I have been lucky enough to get a single project which has kept me busy while I am looking for full time work. It’s a 7000 sqft house in the Midwest with enough crazy features to kick it into small commercial territory (in my opinion), like horrible soil on a hillside, 14’ tall basement, two-story OMF, cantilevered diaphragms, etc. I am also doing all the drafting myself (as usual). This project is with an old client of mine, and we both are treating this as a break-through project. I even started an LLC last month with the hope of eventually (years from now) having enough projects to have full-time work. However, I still live in Europe, so I will have to see how smoothly this project goes without me being in town. FYI: I have visited the site, and we do have another local engineer available to do some observations that I require. The nuances of remotely supporting this project aren’t the main topic here.

About the company: They are a firm that mostly works in tunneling and other related structures like underground caverns, etc, all of which are used for subways, underground terminals, or underground highways. I interviewed with the CEO and a team leader a couple weeks ago, and next week we will have another interview to discuss the terms of their offer to me. It is clear that they are interested in me because they want to do more work in America, but they always have to find some local PE to stamp their work, and their employees also have to deal with visa annoyances whenever they travel to the US. Also, engineers who grew up using metric just don’t have a gut feeling for Imperial units (and vice versa, I might say).

Bringing me on board could solve a lot of these problems. However, I have zero experience in underground structures or local practices in this country (although I have worked in a non-US country for 2.5 years, so I am comfortable with metric units), and obviously they know that, so the trade off of hiring me is that they will have to train me and deal with my developing German skills. On top of that, I cold-called them by sending my resume/CV via email, even though they had no open positions. They say that they still have no open positions, so they are trying to figure out what to do with me. Nonetheless, it’s a good sign that they are going out of their way to try to fit me in.

My concerns:
After such a long and unsuccessful job search here, I am in a weak mindset for salary negotiations. On top of this, local salaries are hard for me to evaluate. In my part of the country and at my level, civil engineers earn 37,000 to 42000 Euros per year. In other parts of the country, it could be up to 46000 Euros per year. Accounting for current exchange rates (40,000 Euros * 1.16 = ) gives around 47,000 USD per year. Well, before I moved to Germany I was making 74,000 USD per year. This sounds bad, but there are other major factors at play. In general, I have noticed the Euro has more buying power at the grocery store, and rent seems to scale down appropriately. I estimate that the biggest factor, though, is the differences in the healthcare systems. Frankly, I don’t know how to account for this. I am happy to be able to pay more taxes in exchange for guaranteed and practically free (often actually free) healthcare. The end result is that I struggle to determine how much salary I should really be asking for, and that would be the case if I were to take on a standard role as an engineer in any firm here.

Here is the real meat of the issue:
If I am going to eventually be stamping drawings for this firm for their US projects, how much value am I really providing to them? In the end, I want to be compensated and treated appropriately, but (perhaps more) importantly, I want to make sure I am protected from a liability standpoint.

Before I sound too entitled, I appreciate their willingness to train me in their sector, and I am really quite thrilled at the chance to contribute to public transportation projects in the US. Plus all my knowledge of current US codes and practices stays relevant, which I would like very much. (Why don’t I just move to the US? My wife is from Europe.)

I think it should be easy enough to get the needed PE licenses through comity when the firm does work outside of California (but we’ll see if it’s really that easy - my second PE was). Would I need to protect myself in other ways depending on the state? Or, if I sign up with their professional liability policy, can I rest easy?

In my interview, the team leader mentioned that in the past they had an easy enough time finding “cowboy” engineers who would stamp anything, but nowadays that’s getting harder to find. I intend to thoroughly review anything that I would stamp, but let’s be honest, it’s going to be a while before I have the competence to really perform a proper review. So until I reach that level, what should I do? On the one hand, this firm has offices in many English-speaking countries where they provide consulting services (including the US), so perhaps the EOR on those projects is also a little out of her/his league, but stamps the work anyway. (Note that I would be way out of my league if I was EOR.) On the other hand, if I was EOR and the project goes into lawsuit mode for any reason, will the firm be able to protect me (whether or not they say they will)? Additionally, could I even be an EOR when practicing outside my area of competence?

The last thing I can think of as a possible way of protecting myself is to (if possible) register a branch of my LLC in any state where I would be stamping a project. This assumes that such a tactic would even work. The idea of course is that if the project has a lawsuit, my LLC branch would get sued and not me. The LLC will have nearly no worth anyway, which will put it on par with my own personal assets.

Conclusion:
I think that covers my areas of concern. I am excited to possibly work for this company because I love the idea of having an important role that still makes use of my US knowledge, but allows me to expand my knowledge elsewhere, too. I just don’t want to put myself in a vulnerable position or make promises I can’t keep. Any advice or insight anyone could offer would be much appreciated.

TLDR? Sorry, I don’t think I can condense this wall of text into one sentence. Read it on the toilet?

 

[GeorgeTheCivilEngineer]

There's nothing stopping you expanding your area of competence. I think you would need the German Engineers (who presumably are fully competent Chartered Engineers) to painstakingly take you through each of their designs and each decision. This will act as both your education and your design review. You challenge them as best you can with the reading you'll need to do and then, when comfortable, you can stamp it.

How long before you can then satisfy yourself of your competence will be up to you, the company and the projects you get.

 

[dik]

Any relation to R2D2?

You have a fantastic opportunity for expanding your professional skills... I wish you all the best. As you go through life, there are occasional regrets... I have very few, but one of the big ones was that I had an opportunity to study at the U of Southampton... because I was parochial and young, I didn't take advantage of the situation... go for it.

Rather than think climate change and the corona virus as science, think of it as the wrath of God. Feel any better?
-Dik

 

[1503-44]

I've been living internationally since 1985 with 20 yrs off and on within the EU.

In the EU, outside of capital and a few other select cities, prices, as you have noticed, are usually reasonable and the quality of most things (esp. food) is exceptional. There are roughly 500 million people in the EU and the vast majority do reasonably well at getting by. Other things like benefits you can actually qualify for and receive can help even more, such as a €500 assistance payment per child, etc. Cost of living for an engineer should not be an obstacle.

Salary and Benefit value: If you want to compare US vs EU salaries, include EU typical benefits too. Where I am there are 20 days of paid holiday leave, plus another 20 paid bank holidays, which I figure as 2 months NOT WORKING per year. Health care is provided for most all working in the system. It is top notch in quality, if not always as timely as one might like. I have had a few issues and everything went extremely well. I am totally satisfied with that aspect. No med insurance companies to fight with at all and no AMA mafia, no or very few, predatory MD practices, cheap state subsidised drugs. I went to the pharmancy with a list of five drugs to buy and they cost €12.00 Totally seamless. In many places you don't really need a car, as public transport is super, timely and relatively cheap. No car depreciation or astronomical auto insurance costs either. Rent a car for the weekend, if you want to drive. Always new models and never any maintenance costs. Yes gas and tolls can be high, but distances are far shorter than US miles. There's a reason that km are 0,62 miles. Me, I love the high speed trains. Watching olive trees roll past at those speeds is quite a rush. I absolutely cannot read any billboards at those speeds.

But back to the salary comparison. Let's say good insurance in the US for yourself and wife and out of pocket exp is 1000/mo or 12K per Yr. $76K ie. $6K/mo, deducting 12K for not actually working on holidays = $64K. No EU engineeri g company I would work for would expect you to work holidays, meaning you can actually not think about work on those days. Turn your phone off and drink a beer or whatever without any smallest feeling of guilt. Here you really are not a slave. Never call your boss on a holiday. Never, never, never.

$64K _ 12K/yr health insurance, or lets say your US company and you each pay half, is 64-6K = $58K
Now take the Euro exchange rate 1.16? I don't ever exchange €/$, because then you have to may Uncle Sam on proceeds. $58K/1.16 = €50K That sounds pretty close to your figure. One thing I have noticed though, is sometimes, when they think they need you, glass ceilings can be broken. So let them think of an actual use for you, before you start targeting the higher numbers and things should work out fine. Now, add in those other tangible/intangible benifits, child subsidies, no car expenses, no parking expenses, auto insurance 0 or far cheaper than US costs, easy access to rest of EU culture and history, museums, close high value travel destinations, its a long list, quality family time, and you've now moved into tall cotton & fat hog territory.

Professional liability in USA: DO NOT MESS WITH THINGS you have to stamp no matter where you live, unless you have adequate experience to do so. As you know, that comes with time. Other than that, well, you're living in Germany man. Not even The Donald's Arms are that long. Besides do we know of any PE that actually lost more than his/her licence and a few $K. And usually that was for stamping drawings after forgetting to pay the yearly license fee immediately when due. If stamping seems to be too complicted a problem to resolve now, with so many unknowns about that, then you want to to reserve that aspect for future discussions and in the meantime you will be more than happy to have an opportunity with them to gain enough experience to get to that point where it becomes feasible..

DISCLAIMER
I currently have no plan to return to USA. I have no interests denominated in USD. However this year I will vote for the first time in 30 years. What can't go on, must stop.

Most important to living outside is to keep your mind OPEN. If you cant do that easily, go home now.

 

[ldeem]

From a legal liability perspective an LLC will do nothing for you. In the US you are taking personal responsibility when you stamp a set of drawings. That is why E&O is orders of magnitude more expensive than general liability insurance.

Personally reading your post it strikes me as very odd that the firm has US based office(s) performing engineering services which means each office would need a responsible engineer in charge (assuming they advertise engineering services). That office I would assume would have E&O insurance for those engineers. Then you mention they used to hire "cowboy" engineers (plan stampers I would say) but that is getting difficult so they want to bring you in. But for some reason the current US office engineers don't stamp plans, something is off here. I think you could find yourself in a position where there will be tremendous pressure to stamp plans that you don't understand and as you said are currently out of your area of practice. I would be sure you clearly tell them what you are willing to stamp now and have the outline of a plan for you to get up to speed on more complex projects. Remember you are not only legally responsible but also morally and ethically responsible for the drawing you stamp. Eve a large firm makes mistake - just read through the Miami pedestrian bridge collapse and Figg's engineering.

 

[J2D2]

Thank you all for the responses so far. I have found them insightful, and I am grateful that you’ve taken the time to read and respond. I am still interested in additional points of view, if others would also be so kind.

I’ll respond to Ideem first because it will provide info that is relevant for the other responses. Also, you may notice that I am a little under-informed about the company’s operations. This is because they went radio silent with me for two weeks after my interview (despite my follow up). Between learning German, finishing up my Midwest McMansion project, and the general trend of me getting rejected around here, I hadn’t spent any more time researching the company.


@Ideem
I looked more carefully at their company profile to better understand what their “US offices” are like, and it turns out that their are only two. One of these offices is on the east coast and is presumably a small space to house their area manager who, in some capacity, manages all of their US projects. The other office is in the Midwest, and is in the same town as the headquarters of one of their US partners, with whom they’ve worked on major projects since the 1990’s. To me, it looks like the company website says they have US offices so they can look like global hot shots, but really it means they rent out some office space for their employees to use when they are actually in the US. I don’t fault them for using this marketing trick. The last big firm I worked for was a “world class” firm with offices in seven countries, including the US, but their US presence was just one guy in Detroit with a desk and a shredder. I joke, but it was actually impossible to reach their Detroit office. I tried, and even HR didn’t know how to get through to them.

Anyway, that may answer why their US “branches” don’t have engineers who are in responsible charge. I think those office spaces are for their European engineers to have a working space while they offer their consulting services to their US partners. It seems to me like there are definitely ways for them to get ahold of US engineers either as plan stampers or proper reviewers or EORs, but I guess they still want somebody here in Europe as well. Lucky for me, American engineers are quite rare in this city. So rare, in fact, that some of the first questions I was asked over the phone by their HR rep were, “What are you even doing here? Did you move here for love?”

So now I am starting to get the feeling that they won’t necessarily be asking me to stamp large projects, at least not any time soon. However, the third question I was asked on the aforementioned phone called was if my licenses were still current, and it was made clear that my licenses are indeed interesting to them. I guess I have to wait until we speak again to find out what they really want with my licenses. The CEO may have stated it clearly in our interview, but unfortunately his dialect is super strong, so I may have missed it. There are only so many times you can ask someone to repeat themselves before you worry that you will disqualify yourself on the basis of language skills. :/ Nonetheless, I understood the team leader well enough, and the challenges I listed earlier (finding plan stampers / cowboys, visa issues, dealing with Imperial units) were things he mentioned, and not things I am assuming.

I conclude that I will ask them to outline in writing what they expect of me and when they imagine they will want me to do it. This way I can sit at home and properly translate my anticipated duties instead of relying on my imperfect interpretation skills. Thanks for the suggestion, Ideem.

Regarding your comment that an LLC won’t protect me: Does that mean I should be sure I am covered in the company’s E&O policy? I am sure the answer is “Yes”, but to be honest, I don’t know how to really check that an insurance provider (of ANY type) will actually cover me when the time comes, instead of citing some loophole to weasel out of coverage. Cynicism aside, does anyone know of a way to confirm that your stamped projects are truly covered by a firm’s E&O policy?


@GeorgeTheCivilEngineer
I like your approach of having them carefully walk me through their project decisions. I had imagined that they would teach me things somewhat piecemeal, since that’s how it was at my first job, but the big difference here is that I may be asked to stamp something myself instead of my boss doing always it.

As the new guy, I admit I was feeling like I would not have the luxury of demanding an explanation for every little thing they do, but how I feel about my position in the company doesn’t matter. I should really learn about and know about every little thing they do on any project I am going to stamp. I will tell them up front that they will need to walk me through some of their projects as if I was the EOR. This needs to happen sooner or later, so it’s best to do it when time pressure is low.


@dik
Yes, Richard Edler von Mises, forerunner of J2 plasticity theory and all-around manipulator of metals, and R2D2 (a metallic robot) are my parents.

Thank you for the kind words and well wishes.


@-thirtynine
You are correct. The non-job-related benefits of living in Europe are undeniable, and having four or five weeks as the minimum vacation time (plus holidays) means one can actually enjoy them. I haven’t attempted to quantify how the difference in vacation policies should affect salaries, but it’s easy to see that qualitatively it makes a massive difference. Plus, the peace of mind that comes with knowing you will get healthcare without it costing thousands of dollars or possibly bankrupting you is another huge perk. I even like to think of that one as a human right.

I like your suggestion of waiting until my responsibilities pile up before I shoot for higher numbers. Judging by what they pay their drafters (37000 Euros per year, I found out), I am thinking they might not try to undercut me as harshly as I feared. With the pandemic still active and entering the second wave in central Europe, I also feel compelled to handle the offer delicately. I am happy that they want to take me on at all given the uncertainty we all face lately.

Thanks for your other advice as well. As I mentioned above, I will get a clearer idea of what they want me to do and what size of projects we’re talking about, and then we will discuss the time lines needed to get me to a level where it would be proper for me to stamp such work.

 

[1503-44]

If you stamp it, YOU ARE EOR! You also thereby certify that you have personally supervised all the work and throughly reviewed all things there above (or in Germany, there below). I never got used to looking at the top of the page to find the "bottom line". I accuse them of actually adding the numbers line by line from the bottom of the page to the top. But its OK. I have an open mind.

 

[ldeem]

I do not know how you would ensure a companies E&O insurance covered you, short of spending a lot on money on your own lawyer to review the coverage. In my case I am a one man operation so I buy my own E&O and prior to this I worked for Haliburton.

I hope I do not deter you from pursuing this opportunity but your initial post sounded fishy to me.

BTW, plan stamper is a pejorative term so use it carefully.

 

[J2D2]

Thanks again for the responses.

In case anyone is wondering, I am still waiting for the second interview to happen. It got postponed one week because I misread the email confirming the appointment. I received two emails almost back to back. One saying the the CEO will check with his colleagues if the time fits, and the second confirming the time. I overlooked the second of these two, in part because the email signatures take up a lot of space and the content of the email is minimal in comparison, but also because the second one was listed below the first, so to me it just looked like a single email, i.e. the first one. Still, it's my fault for not seeing the second email (despite checking multiple times while I was waiting around for days).

I cannot overstate how monumentally embarrassing it was to figure out that I missed the meeting by receiving their follow-up email asking me why I flaked, and then to have to admit fault and request another appointment. I imagine I could only get the same feeling again if Medusa's glare turned me into stone.

 

[1503-44]

OK let's think out of the box and try to turn this around to your advantage.
Got it. If they call you back now, for sure you can ask for your highest number.

 

[r13]

Salary negotiation is an art. You'll gain better hand by knowing the average for your position in the market you are seeking employment, and the company's policy/practice. You won't know the latter, except to ask. The important thing is not to demand your number too fast, unless you don't mind to be rejected due to mismatch. If both of you are interested in each other, but there is a gap between the starting offer, ask a tryout period, and the potential for adjustment after that. Good luck.

 

[BUGGAR]

Without asking who the company is, It sounds like they are trying to break into the U.S. underground market. In California? The U.S. tunneling industry is generally made up of a few select contractors who can joint venture for the big jobs. Do you know the company's target market?
I started my career with a Perini-led consortium as a junior office engineer on the tunnels beneath the west side of Manhatten. Tunneling can get in your blood.

 

[BAretired]

J2D2,

I hate to bring a discouraging word into this discussion, but I believe you should avoid them like the plague. The fact that they sought "cowboy" engineers in the past says a lot about their ethics. It would be interesting to learn why cowboy engineers are getting harder to find, but I think I can guess the reason.

They will consider you a cowboy engineer and will let you go if you don't play ball their way. If you do go along with their scheme, and anything goes wrong, they will not hesitate to throw you under the bus. Things will go wrong. They always do, on every project, and you don't have the knowledge or the language skills to handle such issues.

Look for a firm offering engineering experience. Good luck.

BA

 

[J2D2]

Thanks for the further responses. It’s so comforting to have other engineers to talk to about this, and I really hope I will be able to pay it forward someday.

In the interest of keeping this post somewhat brief, I will just state what course of action I am thinking of taking. It doesn’t mean I am 100% determined to proceed this way, but I need to get my mental flowchart settled within the next 24 hours.

Here are a couple of questions I will be asking them tomorrow:
[ol 1]
[li]“Team Leader” mentioned that it was necessary to find “cowboy” engineers in the past. What kind of things did they have to get stamped?[/li]
[li]How exactly do you intend to use my licenses? In any case, I will not stamp anything for at least the first year, and I cannot promise you that I will be ready after one year has passed.[/li]
[li]Do you agree to allow enough time for me to review any project I will stamp? At first, much training will be need before I can even consider this as a possibility, and when the time comes, it will mean having someone explain to me all decisions that were made until I have fully understood all aspects of the project.[/li]
[li]Do you have E&O insurance for your US projects? Will I be allowed later to review the policy with my own lawyer?[/li]
[/ol]

I have many other questions that I will ask, but these are probably the most important ones. These questions should help me understand what kind of company I’m really dealing with. In particular, I think telling them that I won’t stamp anything for the first year would really help me understand if the are just looking for an in-house plan stamper, or if they actually want our relationship to be mutually beneficial.

I’m glad to see skeptical remarks in this thread, because I am also quite cynical about working for large firms, but the fact is that I haven’t even heard their offer yet. Their “we used to need cowboy engineers” remark was a big tell that we’re seeing as a reason to be apprehensive, and indeed I want to know exactly what they meant by that, but I also don’t want to cry before I am hurt. I mean, years ago I was on a project where our office had to get a local engineer to stamp a small mechanical pad for an outdoor air conditioning unit (I don’t recall the exact details). We had done all the work, but we still needed someone else to stamp it because that jurisdiction was heavy-handed with bureaucracy, and we were annoyed that we had to bring someone else in. So, what if this company was talking about stuff like that when they mentioned seeking out cowboys? I’d hate to write them off before I really understand what they expect of me. At this point I just need more info.

Regarding salary negotiation, I am afraid I am still going in with little concrete information. I find nothing on glassdoor or anywhere else. I do have their old job ad for the drafting position they had posted months ago, and that was a good salary for such a role (since I had seen many of those positions posted in the past seven months). I anticipate they will make a respectable offer (and they know I saw that ad), and I will know if they try to gouge.

The whole idea of telling them I won’t stamp anything for a year is to attempt to secure a solid amount of training before I have to consider taking risks. That will also give me enough time to figure out how I can and should protect myself from liability on their projects in the future, and what kind of stuff they would want me to be responsible for. This could be off-putting to them, or at least, I won’t be bringing my best tools to the table right away, and therefore I will have to wait until the right time to ask for my highest number. Anyway, this is how I see it. If they ask me to start stamping huge, out-of-my-league stuff right away, it wouldn’t matter what they’d pay me. I’d walk.

@BUGGAR
They have already been in the US underground market, but usually as advisors. I will try to find out more about their approach and future goals tomorrow. (Indeed, this would have been good stuff to ask in the first interview!)

 

[1503-44]

Personally I think you may be losing sight of the short term goal of landing a local job and developing valuable experience with their line of work and fitting in with German work culture. I thought that was important to you. In which case you might forego what could be a big "put off moment" trying to sort out in detail what might be some complex future trajectories. I'd try to concentrate on areas that are immediately agreeable, land that job now and see how that goes first. If things go well, then you will be able to discuss all you want to in due time. If things go not so well, then at least you will have had a good intro into how "things are done in Rome" and some concrete ideas of how you fit into that, or if you'd rather build McMansions and yellow brick roads somewhere out west.

Last time I remember, you dug a bit of a hole for yourself and they hadn't called you back with a new interview date, so maybe the cart is getting somewhat ahead of the horse? Or has that been reset now. You also seem to be drawing quite a lot of assumptions about that company with little apparent evidence. Am I wrong? I'd take things on the easy side for now. Land the job, don't make promises. Dont force their hand. See if it works. Later you can always decide to stay, or go, if you're not "the cowboy" they supposedly want.

 

[J2D2]

@-twentyeight (you were -thirtynine or -thirtyfive, right?)
You're right. I am getting a little anxious prematurely. I guess I just like the idea of setting all my terms up front so that we are all on the same page and nobody's time gets wasted, but I am not really in a position to do so. Ultimatums are really an expression of powerlessness (in my perception), and in my case I am feeling powerless to secure a meaningful amount of local experience before I may be asked to stamp work for which I am unqualified. However, that is based on the assumption that such an event could happen, and we don't really know if they are going to ask that of me.

I can't control their behavior. I can only control my own behavior. I won't put up the wall by saying I won't stamp anything for X amount of time, but I am going to make it clear that I won't stamp something unless I am qualified and comfortable, and as necessary, insured.

Earlier, Ideem said:

I think you could find yourself in a position where there will be tremendous pressure to stamp plans that you don't understand and as you said are currently out of your area of practice. I would be sure you clearly tell them what you are willing to stamp now and have the outline of a plan for you to get up to speed on more complex projects. Remember you are not only legally responsible but also morally and ethically responsible for the drawing you stamp.

This is a good answer to my initial question of "What are some red flags I should watch out for?".

I will do my best to keep level-headed and check my cynicism at the door. If it ever does manifest, I'm not concerned about "corporate pressure" bearing down on me to the point where I do something stupid. I think corporate pressure is a complete joke. I worked for a 60-person firm a few years back that would occasionally hire underqualified people for engineering work (I didn't know this going in). One such coworker sent out a set of drawings that were simply incomplete and reflected a poor understanding of load paths. I was later selected to do site inspections, which was well after bidding for construction had been completed, and I noticed many serious errors and unsafe detailing. So, I scrambled for weeks to try to find the least expensive but still safe corrections to implement, and it was a lot of stressful work. About halfway through construction, my manager took me into his office to explain to me that our firm had to start eating the cost of the corrections. Even though I had done my best to optimize the (needed!) corrections, he told me to try to find some things I could leave off. His justification to me? "For every dollar we lose on this project, one-sixtieth will come out of your Christmas bonus." Well, that was my cue to leave. I know engineers get stuck dealing with the constraints of running a business just like anyone else, but compromises of integrity like that are heartbreaking to witness, and I won't let something like that happen to me.

Like you said, -twentyeight, and as others have said, if it turns out they're looking for a cowboy to stamp dodgy stuff, I'm out.

Last time I remember, you dug a bit of a hole for yourself and they hadn't called you back with a new interview date, so maybe the cart is getting somewhat ahead of the horse? Or has that been reset now. You also seem to be drawing quite a lot of assumptions about that company with little apparent evidence. Am I wrong? I'd take things on the easy side for now. Land the job, don't make promises. Dont force their hand. See if it works. Later you can always decide to stay, or go, if you're not "the cowboy" they supposedly want.

Again, I think this is good advice. I thank you. And yes, I made a huge blunder by missing the email, but we quickly set another meeting date, so I think things are okay.

Our meeting got postponed one more day, from their side this time. I know my story isn't nearly so interesting to others as it is to me, but I will report back here for the sake of completeness, because that's something I like to see when I read through threads.

 

[1503-44]

Glad to hear that you still have a shot.
Concentrate on immediately agreeable objectives.
Arrive 15m early and check in all of your preconceptions at the door.
Good luck.

 

[J2D2]

In short: I took the job, and everything is looking very promising. I start tomorrow, and the pay is excellent.

Long version:
I showed up exactly 15 minutes early and waited around in the conference room for 10 minutes. This gave me time to calm down and make sure my phone’s voice recorder was working. Why was I recording the conversation? I simply wanted to listen to it with my wife later to make sure I understood things correctly, and to check if I made any blunders or said anything that was totally off. Three men showed up: the CEO, the team leader, and the head of HR.

The conversation started with a bit of a standstill. Once we finished the “Hi, Hellos” nobody said anything. I broke the silence by asking if I could start reading through my questions that I had for them. I asked them what was the state of their US-based offices and their ambitions there, and then explained the deeper details I had figured out on my own. I then asked the team leader (in a polite manner) to explain specifically what he meant by “cowboy engineers” and how they were used in the past. He was surprised that he had said such a thing in our first interview, but I then reminded him a bit more about our past conversation, and he realized what I was talking about. It turns out that in some of their previous US infrastructure projects (decades ago), certain “intersections” with local utilities and other infrastructure were treated as individual projects which needed a local stamp. I don’t know what the word “intersections” entailed, but it was clearly not the main project, and instead some small peripheral things. The team leader explained how they had done the whole design of the main project from Europe, and they never met the local engineer who stamped the intersections. He found it weird that the local engineer didn’t send much correspondence, so it could have been the case that he was a cowboy and “not afraid of anything”. He said he had to just guess that the local guy knew what he was doing because those peripheral projects were out of their hands and because he got no questions from him. This is the part where I have to admit that I misinterpreted our previous conversation, and I had just assumed the worst. When the team leader said that they can’t find cowboy engineers anymore, he was actually saying that they don’t encounter projects anymore where the US-based engineer doesn’t reach out to them to ask loads of questions. I then wondered why cowboy engineers were ever brought up in the first place, and I guess it’s because they encountered one (described above) on that specific project, which I had asked about because I used to ride that subway line myself, and I had asked them how they got it stamped. I still don’t know who stamped the “main” project, but I assume they got it through the city using their local partner (who would have been the contractor as well).

Now, my interpretation skills are improving, but they are nowhere near flawless, as my wife pointed out to me while we heard the recording. In fact, speaking German with me can be apparently somewhat turbulent. On three separate occasions, I answered a different question than one which was asked, and twice the team leader was interrupted before he could finish an explanation: once by me, once by the CEO. Of course, I perceived none of these instances. Still, by the time the conversation was over, I did manage to answer their questions, albeit by coincidence or by virtue of the topics being stuff one normally covers in interviews. I also unnecessarily volunteered information a couple of times. At one point they were asking me if I could imagine construction site management in my future (many years from now), and I took that as them asking if I intended to stay long term or if I was just trying to get a little local experience before I pissed off to another firm. However, they never asked me anything like that in the whole second interview. Nonetheless, I gave an answer (in English to be sure that I said what I meant), stating that I was looking for a long-term gig at a company that does interesting and important work and where I hope I can invest myself. I suppose they thought, “Ja, kool, but what about our question?...”

I’m pretty shocked at how much negativity and paranoia I projected into these conversations. It’s quite embarrassing, but I can point straight to the career-related traumas that created such baggage. Still, these guys don’t deserve that. The fact is that I barely know them, and surely I know even less than I think I do. I followed @-twentytwo’s advice going into the interview, and I believe that was a lifesaver. (Thanks a lot for the tips, mate.) I just tried to forget all my concerns, but still work through my list of politely formulated questions and make a couple of clear statements about when and under what conditions it would be appropriate for me to stamp something. The second interview felt a lot like a first interview, but with less uncertainty about whether or not I would get an offer.

Regarding stamping, they told me that it would be many years before we would consider that as a possibility. They want to start me off in retaining walls and shoring and other steel projects before they work me into tunneling. For my other questions, they basically gave a perfect answer in line with what I would want (later verified by my wife, again illustrating the usefulness of the recording).

Thanks to collective bargaining agreements / labor unions (something sorely needed in the US), my minimum starting salary is legally required to account for my education and experience, and is not based on my weak negotiation skills or the saturated labor market. I was expecting 37000 based on other job ads I had seen, but I had not really understood where I fit into the hierarchy laid out by the collective bargaining agreements. I was offered (and will take) a six-month contract for the equivalent of 56000 Euros per year, with the possibility of extending it permanently (which I will strive for). For reference, I have eight years of experience and a masters degree and it’s October 2020. Note that a lot of my experience isn’t directly applicable, and my US-licenses are not taken into account right now because they won’t be used for years. Again, I was offered the lowest possible salary for my education and experience, and I was ignorant of my relative professional standing. Such is the power of collective bargaining. Thanks to labor unions, even a well-meaning fool like me can’t legally and/or accidentally undersell himself. I certainly don’t mean to brag here. In fact, I’m sure I am impressing no one. Filter out my political opinions from this paragraph and take the raw numbers for what they are: evidence, or at the very least, information for some future person to use as reference.

At the end of the interview, I accepted their offer and agreed to start the beginning of the following week. They showed me around their offices and I was introduced to my future teammates, who were welcoming and didn't look exhausted. More importantly, I was shown some of the work they are doing, and they have excellent drawing standards. It also looks like my first projects will indeed be well within my reach academically. I will even have my own office, which to me at his point is just an embarrassment of riches.

I thank you all once again for your helpful advice, and for reminding me to stay vigilant when contemplating the use of a PE stamp. It carries a legal, moral, and ethical responsibility that shall not be confounded by career ambition or corporate pressure. It never hurts to have that reiterated.

 

[BAretired]

Congratulations J2D2. It seems as though you have found a position which will offer excellent engineering experience. All the best in the future.

BA

 

[1503-44]

There you go. See, no reason for "negativity". Europe usually has a positive working environment. Even if things go wrong, they will not waste time with witch hunts and concentrate on making things right.

They beat my salary calc by a little bit. Good for you. It is nice to work in a fair system.

Happy Life.

Reality used to affect the way we thought. Now we somehow believe that what we think affects reality.