So here is the situation. I have been working for an AE consulting company for a year now. The owner of the company hired my boss about 14 months ago to start up a Civil/Surveying department. My boss hired me 2 months later, and then a couple months later he hired a surveyor. It hasn’t been the best of experiences because my boss had not done any surveying or site design work in the past 25 years. I have stuck with it though because of the economy and just to get some time under my belt. But to get to the main point, yesterday he took me and the surveyor out for lunch and told us he was leaving the company on Nov. 1. He is going to work for another company. The company he is going to is being started by 5 or 6 guys that quit their jobs last week in the Environmental Engineering department of this company. They decided to start their own company and have apparently been planning this move for a while. So my boss told me and my surveyor that he would like us to go to this new company with him. I asked him if we would be doing Civil Engineering work at the new company and his answer was basically a no. It will mostly be dealing with environmental site cleanups. I am within 1-2 years of being able to take my PE exam and become licensed, and not sure if moving to this company will be beneficial for me. My boss has told me and the surveyor not to say anything about him leaving to the owner of the company we are at now, for fear that he will be fired on the spot. So me and the surveyor already don’t like working for our boss, but if we were to stay at this company I could see the owner pulling the plug on the whole department. I am not sure if he would hire someone to replace my boss or not. So I am stuck with moving to that new company, staying here, or looking elsewhere for a job. I would really like the owner of the company i'm at now to know what is going on so that he can decide if he would like to keep a Civil/Survey department, or figure out how to re-assign me or whatever he would do. My boss says that he is looking out for the best interest of me and the surveyor, but to me it seems that isn’t the case at all. I’ve probably left some details out, but any comments/advice/thoughts would be apprectiated!
Eng-Tips is the largest engineering community on the Internet
Intelligent Work Forums for Engineering Professionals
An Odd Situation 6
- Thread starter ttuterry
- Start date
I don't think that was the case.... Cass had a non-compete, spent a bunch of money on lawyers but lost the case.... in this case it seems the courts have no sympathy with non-compete agreements, even in a blatant case such as this where if there were any discretion or sympathy the courts might have been expected to decide for Cass, she clearly wasn't out-spent on lawyers.
On the other hand, patents do require loads of dosh and patent holders often fail simply because they don't have enough money to follow through.
This is where I support Trevor Baylis' call for some kind of reform of the law. Clearly most governments support patent law but don't seem able to address the fact that patent infringers can buy their way out of an adverse decision.
JMW
On the other hand, patents do require loads of dosh and patent holders often fail simply because they don't have enough money to follow through.
This is where I support Trevor Baylis' call for some kind of reform of the law. Clearly most governments support patent law but don't seem able to address the fact that patent infringers can buy their way out of an adverse decision.
JMW
-
3
- #42
patprimmer
New member
ttuterry, what a can of worms.
1) Your boss is not looking out for you, he is looking out for himself and not doing that all so well by telling anyone his plans.
2) Your boss is behaving in an unethical way, so don't trust him.
3) Despite the above, he is still your boss and he did give you your current job. You owe him some loyalty for that.
4) The dilemma is you also owe those who finally pay your salary loyalty for that so long as that exists.
5) To betray your boss to the owners will show you as being disloyal and not to be trusted.
6) Being part of the conspiracy will also show you as being disloyal, unethical and not to be trusted. You are between a rock and a hard place in that regard.
7) Do you know why your boss is leaving, what is going on with your current company, the new proposed company and the client. Has the project been handled poorly by the current company re charges or competence or has your boss white anted his current employer or something entirely different.
8) What are the legal obligations re existing contracts. That subject has been broached by most responders but not yet by you.
9) The poor wording of the title of this thread and the scant information so far provided leads one to believe you have some poor communication skills, but it is also possible that you are selecting evidence to guide the advice toward what you want to hear. For the best advice we need the best information. Fess up as to all you know or to what you don't know and what your objectives are. Are they to come out financial best off, to stay most secure with less money, to do the ethical thing or to protect your reputation. Are you looking to the long, medium or short term in money and/or security.
There is no clear answer and still some significant questions.
From what I have seen and disregarding what I suspect is between the lines, and the advice several others have offered:-
1) Do not betray a confidence.
2) Do not participate any further in any conspiracy.
3) Prepare for a promotion where you are.
4) Proactivly seek new employment, possibly through some recruiters.
5) Keep your options open with your boss to negotiate AFTER he leaves. You should clearly explain to him that you will respect his confidence for discussions to date, but you are uncomfortable about those discussions and any continuation until after he leaves.
6) You need to be conscious and cautious of his unethical behavior to date, but not to judgmental as it is quite unlikely that you know his real motives and the background leading to this. For instance he might simply be greedy and is trying to take his bosses share of any profit on a project, or he may have been instructed to act outside his own conscience with regard to dealings with this or even several customers.
7) If asked directly by anyone over your bosses hear, while ever he is still your boss, simply state that you have no wish to betray any confidence or show disloyalty toward your boss. If pressed, state you are not and will not be any part of any ALLEGED conspiracy. Do not confirm the conspiracy. They may not like that answer but they will respect it, which is the least damaging outcome you can get from an overall long term point of view.
Regards
Pat
See FAQ731-376 for tips on use of eng-tips by professional engineers &
for site rules
1) Your boss is not looking out for you, he is looking out for himself and not doing that all so well by telling anyone his plans.
2) Your boss is behaving in an unethical way, so don't trust him.
3) Despite the above, he is still your boss and he did give you your current job. You owe him some loyalty for that.
4) The dilemma is you also owe those who finally pay your salary loyalty for that so long as that exists.
5) To betray your boss to the owners will show you as being disloyal and not to be trusted.
6) Being part of the conspiracy will also show you as being disloyal, unethical and not to be trusted. You are between a rock and a hard place in that regard.
7) Do you know why your boss is leaving, what is going on with your current company, the new proposed company and the client. Has the project been handled poorly by the current company re charges or competence or has your boss white anted his current employer or something entirely different.
8) What are the legal obligations re existing contracts. That subject has been broached by most responders but not yet by you.
9) The poor wording of the title of this thread and the scant information so far provided leads one to believe you have some poor communication skills, but it is also possible that you are selecting evidence to guide the advice toward what you want to hear. For the best advice we need the best information. Fess up as to all you know or to what you don't know and what your objectives are. Are they to come out financial best off, to stay most secure with less money, to do the ethical thing or to protect your reputation. Are you looking to the long, medium or short term in money and/or security.
There is no clear answer and still some significant questions.
From what I have seen and disregarding what I suspect is between the lines, and the advice several others have offered:-
1) Do not betray a confidence.
2) Do not participate any further in any conspiracy.
3) Prepare for a promotion where you are.
4) Proactivly seek new employment, possibly through some recruiters.
5) Keep your options open with your boss to negotiate AFTER he leaves. You should clearly explain to him that you will respect his confidence for discussions to date, but you are uncomfortable about those discussions and any continuation until after he leaves.
6) You need to be conscious and cautious of his unethical behavior to date, but not to judgmental as it is quite unlikely that you know his real motives and the background leading to this. For instance he might simply be greedy and is trying to take his bosses share of any profit on a project, or he may have been instructed to act outside his own conscience with regard to dealings with this or even several customers.
7) If asked directly by anyone over your bosses hear, while ever he is still your boss, simply state that you have no wish to betray any confidence or show disloyalty toward your boss. If pressed, state you are not and will not be any part of any ALLEGED conspiracy. Do not confirm the conspiracy. They may not like that answer but they will respect it, which is the least damaging outcome you can get from an overall long term point of view.
Regards
Pat
See FAQ731-376 for tips on use of eng-tips by professional engineers &
for site rules
In this economy, it's dog eat dog. I really don't fault your current boss for going out on his own. Was it "sleazy" or unethical, the way companies treat employees today I'd say not at all.
Also, environmental work is the only thing going on nowadays. And with all this guys experience, I'm thinking the business will be a success.
If you decide not to go, you could very well find yourself in a situation where the company you are with now goes out of business (depending on there line of work) and you go to your old boss looking for a job.
yes, it's that bad out there.
Also, environmental work is the only thing going on nowadays. And with all this guys experience, I'm thinking the business will be a success.
If you decide not to go, you could very well find yourself in a situation where the company you are with now goes out of business (depending on there line of work) and you go to your old boss looking for a job.
yes, it's that bad out there.
This sort of thing happens all the time in the rest of the business world. But somehow, it's only engineers who are expected to be held to a higher standard (and lower salaries).
Nonsense, I say. Go toward the money and opportunity young man!
Nonsense, I say. Go toward the money and opportunity young man!
- Thread starter
- #47
Here is an update...I have found out a little more information about the situation. Apparently there is going to be some legal issues. I have overheard that one of the guys from the new company was stealing client info from this company after he had quit. He apparently was somehow remotely connected to the server and getting information. Also I heard that this same guy was not recording billing info from clients while he was here, trying to give this company a bad name, and then telling them about his new company. My mind had already been made up to not switch companies with my boss. And now after hearing all of this, whether true or not, it is enough to keep me at my current job. I have begun looking at other opportunities as well. Thanks everyone for your insight and input, as it was very useful and helpful.
ttuterry:
Thank you for getting back with the update. Not many do that.
I also believe that you took the right decision.
Rafiq Bulsara
Thank you for getting back with the update. Not many do that.
I also believe that you took the right decision.
Rafiq Bulsara
The guy stealing information is in for some bad trouble.... no excuse for that.
I wonder what makes some people think it is worth it or that they will get away with it.
That said, it happens.
At one company I was at one "employee" was gathering info for another company". This is stupid behaviour both for him and for the other company.
Heck, our product marketing manager was quite openly looking for information on competitor company products, the sort of thing all companies do, nothing clandestine, nothing apparently illegal, just literature etc He wasn't asking himself, he was getting friendly agents to request literature.
He got a rocket from the Dept. of Trade.
Quite what the difference was between him and some company like Frost and Sullivan putting together market data I don't know. But getting inside information on clients, prices, costs ect is a definite crime.
JMW
I wonder what makes some people think it is worth it or that they will get away with it.
That said, it happens.
At one company I was at one "employee" was gathering info for another company". This is stupid behaviour both for him and for the other company.
Heck, our product marketing manager was quite openly looking for information on competitor company products, the sort of thing all companies do, nothing clandestine, nothing apparently illegal, just literature etc He wasn't asking himself, he was getting friendly agents to request literature.
He got a rocket from the Dept. of Trade.
Quite what the difference was between him and some company like Frost and Sullivan putting together market data I don't know. But getting inside information on clients, prices, costs ect is a definite crime.
JMW
- Thread starter
- #50
(UPDATE)
I decided to stay with the original company which has turned out to be a great choice. The final 2 weeks of my ex-bosses employment were the most awkward and uncomfortable weeks I have ever experienced. His recruiting efforts became pretty much a constant thing and were not limited to outside work or lunchtime. He also became very lazy and bashed the current company constantly. He even decided in his mind that it would be best to turn in a combined resignation letter for me, him, and our surveyor. This idea was obviously immediately shot down by me and the surveyor. The week after he quit he asked me to come work for him part times during the evenings. I never once told him I was committed to going to the new place and I stayed neutral to the whole situation. He offered me raises and bonuses but I still decided to stay here. I am curious of anyobody's opinion on the ethics of the whole situation. It seems that recruiting for your new employer, which is a competitor to your old employer, while still working at your old employer is very unethical. In the month since he has been gone, my work situation has improved greatly. My new boss doesn't watch over my shoulder all the time, and i was even given a loyalty bonus for sticking with the company. The owner and I have had discussions about how he is going to utilize me and how to make the best out of the situation. Two more people quit this company today to go to that same company my boss went to which is a little unsettling. But I am satisfied with my decision to stay here!
I decided to stay with the original company which has turned out to be a great choice. The final 2 weeks of my ex-bosses employment were the most awkward and uncomfortable weeks I have ever experienced. His recruiting efforts became pretty much a constant thing and were not limited to outside work or lunchtime. He also became very lazy and bashed the current company constantly. He even decided in his mind that it would be best to turn in a combined resignation letter for me, him, and our surveyor. This idea was obviously immediately shot down by me and the surveyor. The week after he quit he asked me to come work for him part times during the evenings. I never once told him I was committed to going to the new place and I stayed neutral to the whole situation. He offered me raises and bonuses but I still decided to stay here. I am curious of anyobody's opinion on the ethics of the whole situation. It seems that recruiting for your new employer, which is a competitor to your old employer, while still working at your old employer is very unethical. In the month since he has been gone, my work situation has improved greatly. My new boss doesn't watch over my shoulder all the time, and i was even given a loyalty bonus for sticking with the company. The owner and I have had discussions about how he is going to utilize me and how to make the best out of the situation. Two more people quit this company today to go to that same company my boss went to which is a little unsettling. But I am satisfied with my decision to stay here!
ttuterry
Thank you for the update. I also think you made the right decisions, especially when you find yourself at peace with it. You deserved the loyalty bonus and your employer also must be commended for their positive action.
Good luck in the future!
Rafiq Bulsara
Thank you for the update. I also think you made the right decisions, especially when you find yourself at peace with it. You deserved the loyalty bonus and your employer also must be commended for their positive action.
Good luck in the future!
Rafiq Bulsara
Follow Cass' advice and if you go over to the new company, tell your boss that its going to have to be under these conditions.
Your list follows ...
**********************
"Pumping accounts for 20% of the world’s energy used by electric motors and 25-50% of the total electrical energy usage in certain industrial facilities."-DOE statistic (Note: Make that 99% for pipeline companies)
Your list follows ...
**********************
"Pumping accounts for 20% of the world’s energy used by electric motors and 25-50% of the total electrical energy usage in certain industrial facilities."-DOE statistic (Note: Make that 99% for pipeline companies)
- Status
Similar threads
- Locked
- Question
- Locked
- Question