Antifreeze System NFPA 13 5

[EJP-21]

Hello guys i need help on something im not familiar with,

How do we calculate the required Gallon of antifreeze system the we need to mix with a wet sprinkler system?

I have an area of 17,000 sq.ft. of residential units and we need to provide antifreeze system on the highest floor. its pretty big floor area we have 2 standpipes on both ends.
we are using residential sprinklers of reliable.

Thank you and keep safe everyone

 

[cdafd]

EJP

You are using anti freeze, in the residential living area???

Which edition of 13 are you using???

What state are you in?

 

[EJP-21]

Hey cdafd,

Yes, living areas and also corridors. (Its a 4 story buidling - We are providing anti freeze on the 4th floor only)

The building is filed under NFPA 13 - 2013 at New York State.

This is new for me, havent done anti freeze before but im pretty sure this is more than the 40 gal req. and i have to adjust the K-factors as the SG will be changed also.

Thanks

 

[cdafd]

Check the edition of 13 you are designing to

Plus check with the ahj as far as what their policy is


The guidance is similar in NFPA 13R: Standard for the Installation of Sprinkler Systems in Low-Rise Residential Occupancies: all antifreeze solutions must be listed.

https://www.qrfs.com/blog/107-the-use-of-antifreeze-in-fire-protection-systems/

 

[cdafd]

If designed right, and pipe is kept in heated area, for the interior, a plain wet system should work

 

[UFT12]

EJP-21

the antifreeze solutions are typically pre-mixed solutions ready for use. That means you practically need to know what is the internal volume of your piping up to the water supply interface (call it a backflow preventer or check valve etc). However, as cdafd said and if my memory serves me well, antifreeze agents were banded since edition 2013 unless they are listed. So, check whether this approach is viable for your case or not. Assuming that your AHJ enforces this, it may be hard to find listed antifreeze.

 

[cdafd]

There is now listed AntiFreeze

Would have to read 13 to see if even listed AntiFreeze is allowed to be used inside a residential unit.

 

[cdafd]

Once again would confirm with the AHJ,

Before you decide to use antifreeze::


New Sprinkler Systems (i.e., installed after September 30, 2012) Containing Antifreeze – NFPA 13, NFPA 13D and NFPA 13R Sprinkler Systems
With limited exceptions, all new antifreeze systems (systems installed after September 30, 2012) are required to use listed antifreeze solutions. The listing of the antifreeze solution must indicate that the solution will not ignite when discharged from a sprinkler. The exceptions to the requirement for listed antifreeze solutions are as follows:

Factory premixed antifreeze solutions of propylene glycol in excess of 40% by volume are permitted in ESFR (Early Suppression Fast Response) systems where the sprinklers are listed for such use in a specific application. The listing will indicate the maximum percentage of propylene glycol that can be used with the specific sprinkler.
Limited use of factory premixed antifreeze solutions of propylene glycol up to 38%and glycerin up to 48%are permitted in “specific areas” of new NFPA 13D installations where approved by the authority having jurisdiction (AHJ).
The designer must provide documentation to the AHJ substantiating the use of traditional antifreeze solutions.
New systems, once installed, must be annually tested in the manner required for existing systems, summarized below.

https://www.nfpa.org/antifreeze

 

[TravisMack]

There are 2 brands on the market I am aware of at this time. One is limited to 40 gallon for light hazard areas. The other is limited to 500 gallon for light hazard areas.

You simply need to total up the pipe you have and determine the volume. Yes, you will need to use the Darcy Weisbach method for hydraulic calculations if your system exceeds 40 gallon capacity.

Travis Mack, SET, CWBSP, RME-G, CFPS
MFP Design, a Ferguson Enterprise

http://www.mfpdesign.com

 

[MGXFP]

Also worth noting the appendix of NFPA 13 has tables listing the volume contained per foot of various pipe types and diameters. If you have the plans you could estimate the volume within the pipes this way.

 

[stookeyfpe]

I don't understand why he needs antifreeze on the building's fourth floor. If the project has plumbing, the potable, non-potable, and fire protection piping can be protected using conventional insulation without the need for an antifreeze solution. Antifreeze brings a host of Inspection, Testing, and Maintenance (ITM) issues.

 

[EJP-21]

Thank you everyone, i calculated it and total pipe volume will be 238 gallons.

We are still looking with other options as Antifreeze can cause problem if not done right.

Thanks again everyone and stay safe.

 

[SprinklerDesigner2]

Maybe sidewall heads from the third floor?

I would go dry with a dry system with dry pendents. Going with antifreeze is not doing your customer any favors.

As for me I will walk away from a project before I ever use antifreeze again.

 

[OremusFire]

Seems like a lot of overreaction here. Per 13R you need a UL Listed antifreeze - Listed antifreeze has been on the market for a while now. So you're good to go. There's no reason to be afraid of it. As an added safety precaution you could stick with K-factors of 4.0 or above. I believe the catastrophic fire that started the antifreeze issue had a system that had too high a concentration of antifreeze AND small orifice sprinklers.

For system volume create an excel spreadsheet and enter the following:
=((3.14*(((J15/12)/2)^2))*7.48)*J17

Where J15 is the ID of the pipe and J17 is the number of feet. Change J15 and J17 to whatever cells you specifiy. I have a whole sheet with all the diameters for all the sizes of CPVC, Bullmoose, Allied Pipe, Sch10 / 40 etc... you enter the number of feet in each cell and presto! Total volume in gallons.

What also makes it easy is if you're using autocad there is a lisp file command that someone created called LINESUM. Isolate your pipe layer(s), run the command, and select all the pipe you need figured and it spits out the total length of all the lines. Just make sure you don't have any lines entered in the Z-dimension if you're drawing in 2D.

 

[cdafd]

Ore

Still have not read the latest 13r

Has it been approved inside dwelling units?

If 13r is done right should not freeze

 

[UFT12]

Talking about LISP, I 've seen some amazing stuff done solely with Lisp. Here is one example.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LYfzNUxtJhY

 

[SprinklerDesigner2]

Antifreeze must be listed and pre-mixed. Everyone knows this but let me add it is not cheap.

About$12/gallon my cost. Not bad unless you need 300 gallons or so in which case you might want to look at a dry system as an alternative.

 

[OremusFire]

Yeah, I've got a ton of lisp routines I've made over the years, everything from automated calculation nodes, pipe dimensioning, spacing templates based on slope which you enter. A little bit of coding and you could just as easily make a routine to do the pipe capacities where you select the pipe and it spits out the capacity. For now the excel method I talked about works just fine.

 

[TravisMack]

With your capacity at >200 gallons, check the listing of the solution. If your capacity if >200 gallons you calculate as a dry system. That may have an impact on your pipe sizing and therefore your capacity.

Travis Mack, SET, CWBSP, RME-G, CFPS
MFP Design, a Ferguson Enterprise

http://www.mfpdesign.com

 

[UFT12]

If your capacity if >200 gallons you calculate as a dry system.

Not sure I follow. Anti-freeze systems > 40 gal are calculated per Darcy–Weisbach. Dry pipe system are still calculated with Hazen-Williams, only with a C=100. Or are we talking for something else here?