Any thoughts on NX - CMM Inspection 2

[lorenolepi]

My company is looking at getting a few seats of the NX CMM inspection. We currently use NX for CAD/CAM and thought that the CMM application would be a perfect fit because it can run off of PMI and its offline capabilities,(don't have to program on the inspection machine itself). I was wondering if any one else has used it and if so if you could provided any insight as far as how the post processing is done (can it be tweaked?), can you do any reporting after the part is inspected (if so how is the information reported back into nx?) or any other useful information.

Thanks!

Side note:
We currently use
PCDMIS(inspection software)
NX 7.5 (going to NX 8 soon)
Teamcenter 8.1 (going TC 8.3 or 9 soon)

 

[jerry1423]

I did a quick Internet search and found this . . . you may have seen this documentation already, but it looks very cool - I wish we could get it here:

http://www.cardsplmsolutions.nl/med.../NX_CMM_Inspection_Programming_Review_v01.pdf

 

[lorenolepi]

Thanks for the link Jerry... I actually read it just prior to my post. Its a good review but I was looking for more details on the ins/outs

 

[akerth]

Hi Lorenolepi:

We are a Siemens partner that specializes in the CMM Inspection Programming product.

The answers to your questions vary depending on what exactly your end requirement is.

If you contact me offline we can have a discussion to talk about feature/functions and the various execution and reporting options that are available to you.

We are currently implementing at a site that sounds like your exact environment so we have quite a bit of useful insight.

Send me a note with your contact information and we can talk more in depth : akerth@6dms.net and post a summary of the conversation here afterwards that may help others

Talk to you soon,

Ashley Kerth-
6dms, Inc.

 

[DaSalo]

We have been using Tecnomatix Quality for nearly 15 years. The NX CMM inspection module is next generation inspection solution that replaces Tecnomatix Quality.

We have been researching it very extensively over the past 3 months inlcuding conference calls with high-level Siemens product managers.

We have concluded that there is no significant advantage that we can find to staying with the Siemens product line for inspection.

PC-DMIS can do everything that the NX inspection module can do at about 1/3 of the cost. There is extensive support and training available for PC-DMIS including greate online communities of users. There is no such thing for the NX module.

The advantage of the NX module, as far as we can tell, is better looking graphics. That's about it.

We were 100% sold on the idea of continuing with the NX product when we began looking into it and after 3 months of extensive research we are now 100% sold on moving everything over to PC-DMIS.

I have looked very, very hard for some way to justify the cost of the NX product and I simply can not.

If you have specific questions about functionality and how it compares to PC-DMIS I would be happy to give more details. I will mention at this point that all of the functionality that you mentioned in your original post is available in PC-DMIS, including the ability to run off of NX PMI information.

Finally, I will mention that I have no affiliation with Hexagon metrology/PC-DMIS in any way and have nothing whatsoever against the NX module. The cost is simply not justifiable based on the functionality, especially if you are already using PC-DMIS.

NX 7.5.5.5, NX 8.0.0.25 MP01
Tecnomatix Quality 8.0.1.3
PC-DMIS 2011 MR1

 

[lorenolepi]

DaSalo,
I hear what your saying on the cost, I just got the licensing info and was in a bit of shock at the $26K a seat! I truely like the concept of using NX for everything, but like you said its impossible to justify the cost. With the newer versions of NX its really easy to use PMI so I'm happy to hear that the new versions of PC-DMIS can handle it.

I do have a few questions for you....please note that my company just recently got NX/Teamcenter (within the last two years) and has not done any CMM programming utilizing the models but we would like to start.


Does PC-DMIS translate the file or does it directly read .prt/jt files? Do you know if PC-DMIS is 100% compatible with NX's PMI?

What do you do when a model is revised? Do you have to completly re-run the program... do you just manually edit them and loose connection to the model?


What are you using for a database?

Thanks for your input!

 

[akerth]

DalSalo;

I'm sure that you were very diligent in your review and evaluation of the NX CMM product for your company's needs. Your input here is great and has valid points, however: We have been affiliated with, sold, supported and used just about every mainstream online and offline cmm programming product on the market over the last 20 years, i.e. Silma Cimstation Inspection, PC-DMIS, Calypso, Valysis, Metrolog/Silma XG, the list goes on. and we know that no one unified or point solution fits the needs or aligns completely with every company's quality/engineering initiatives.

That's why I asked to have Lorenolepi contact me and discuss what his requirements were. Does his company have multiple sites? multiple brands and makes of cmms? different software versions, are they a contract shop that gets cad/engineering data from different sources, i.e. Catia, Pro-E, etc, etc.

NX CMM Inspection Programming and Execution are viable products for many companies, but not all. Is it expensive? it's all relative, how much would it cost to retro-fit a Zeiss CMM to PC-DMIS or in a scenario where there has been an acquisition of another manufacturing business that has Mitutoyo.

Anyhow, I am not suggesting at all that the product is for everyone, but it IS viable and fits in many business models.

In closing: We are affiliated with Siemens, and we are motivated to help improve the product, grow the user base and offer a comprehensive range of support and implementation services so that it has broader potential. I would also like to talk to either of you guys offline anytime regardless of whether you choose PC-DMIS over NX or not.

Ashley Kerth-
6dms, Inc.

 

[DaSalo]

PC-DMIS will not be directly linked to your NX model. It works on imported data, not linked data. You can purchase a direct CAD interface that will allow PC-DMIS to read NX .prt data without translation. I believe this was a $2500-$3000 add-on. We do not use this and simply rely on .iges or .step translation to get the models into PC-DMIS. PC-DMIS does have functionality to update feature nominals directly from the CAD model when a change has occurred. I have not used that functionality much so can't comment on how well it works but it is there.

We also do not use the PMI functionality in PC-DMIS so I can not comment on whether it is 100% compatible. It was just added in most recent release, 2011 MR1.

I think it will come down to how similar your parts are and what sort of design changes you are typically having to negotiate. Just as with the feature-based machining functionality, the automated inspection functions will work fine if your parts consist primarily of planes, holes, bosses, etc. If the geometry is predictable, you do a lot of parts that are very similar, and require large numbers of programs with similar structure then you probably have a good case for applying the automation.

We do not have this situation. Our parts are heavily contoured, highly variable, and push our CMM technology to the limit. We are making custom probes to get inside "impossible" geometry, doing large amounts of development inspection, etc. We could never rely on the computer to select probe angles for us etc. We could not see any application for the automation functionality for our work.

Keep in mind that the $26,000 only buys you the offline programing functionality. You still need another piece of software to actually read the code and drive the CMM. If you are planning to continue to use PC-DMIS at the CMMs, importing DMIS code that has been post-processed out from NX, I wish you the best of luck. PC-DMIS is not 100% compatible with the DMIS standard and you will likely find that you need to do a lot of tweaking to get your programs running 100%. If you are planning to purchase the NX CMM front end you will very likely still need to have PC-DMIS installed on the CMM(That is how Tecnomatix currently works: Program in NX, export the code to a front-end interface at the CMM that interfaces on the backend with the OEM CMM software to drive the machine) and will now be on the hook for maintenance for 3 different products from two different companies.

PC-DMIS runs somewhere in the neighborhood of $10,000 for an online seat that will allow you to program AND run the the CMM. You can get an offline seat of PC-DMIS for even less. I bet you could get 3 offline seats of PC-DMIS for the cost of one seat of NX inspection.

PC-DMIS has comprehensive object libraries so can be customized and automated using either the built in Basic scripting or an external executable. Many, many, many companies use VB to heavily automate and customize PC-DMIS. There is a large online community that shares code samples and strategies.

One of our biggest issues with Tecnomatix quality over the past 10+ years is that the software is rare. There is no support community to share ideas and strategies with. If we loose a CMM operator or programmer there is no way we will find a replacement with Tecnomatix experience. Everyone who has been running or programming a CMM for any length of time has some familiarity with PC-DMIS.

There is no question that the NX inspection programming interface is way nicer than PC-DMIS. It is very nice to be able to do everything in NX, no question about it. If you have a strong case for automation then that is another advantage. At the end of the day we have found that we can accomplish even the most difficult inspection tasks on very complex geometry with PC-DMIS for a fraction of the price.

To answer your final question: we are not using Teamcenter.

NX 7.5.5.5, NX 8.0.0.25 MP01
Tecnomatix Quality 8.0.1.3
PC-DMIS 2011 MR1

 

[DaSalo]

@akerth:

I agree that Lorenolepi should be in contact with someone like yourself to investigate this product. Inspection software is a very complicated question when you start looking at all of the different requirements for machine compatability, CAD compatability,standard reporting, SPC reporting, graphical analysis, automation, etc.

My comments should only be taken in the context of how they relate to our particular company and our particular requirements. As I mentioned in my post above, there are situations where the automation and teamcenter integration would be very beneficial.

We wanted very much to find a way to justify the new Siemens inspection product. We have been using NX for a very long time, are very happy with the software, and were jumping at the chance to further integrate our inspection programming into this platform. Despite our strong bias towards staying with Siemens inspection product, and a very rocky start with a buggy intial release PC-DMIS 2011, we simply were not able to build any kind of coherent case.

I would love to hear your perspective on the two products based on your experience supporting them. Perhaps we missed something. Our decision to abandon the Siemens inspection product is not yet set in stone but the mortar is hardening quickly.



NX 7.5.5.5, NX 8.0.0.25 MP01
Tecnomatix Quality 8.0.1.3
PC-DMIS 2011 MR1

 

[lorenolepi]

DaSalo,
Do you know if PC-DMIS offers simulation?

 

[DaSalo]

Yes, you can simulate just the motorized head => tip assembly with all rotations and movements and you can specify the entire machine and simulate the entire CMM to visualize machine travel limits, etc. The software comes with most common heads, tips, and CMMs included in a library and you can also specify your own. You can also do collision checking. You can also just turn the path lines on and off to visualize motion without having to actually execute the simulation. One very nice feature is that you can add movements by simply clicking on the path line near where you want to make a change and it will insert a break in the path at that point and allow you to specify the change in motion. This lets you program the whole thing without worrying about clearance moves and then just go back at the end and insert clearance moves where needed by clicking on the path and moving it where you want it.

I will also say that NX will do all of these things, except, perhaps, the direct path editing, in a more elegant form. The CMM simulation is the same as the CAM simulation functionality. Anyone used to NX CAM will definitely find the graphics in PC-DMIS lacking. That said, I was used to NX CAM and Technomatix (which runs in the NX environment but does not use the CAM interface the way the new module does) and after my initial grumpiness at the perceived step down I came to the realization that I could still do my job just fine and the coarser visualization really didn't hurt my productivity at all.



NX 7.5.5.5, NX 8.0.1.5
Tecnomatix Quality 8.0.1.3
PC-DMIS 2011 MR1

 

[DaSalo]

I'm also going to add that I have been discussing the pros and cons of the different software packages in different environments with Ashley Kerth, who posted a few comments earlier in this thread. He has helped me to see some significant advantages to the NX module that I had overlooked before. I will post a more comprehensive summary of discussion here in the future. I would definitely recommend that you contact him and get his perspective on the different options. He is very knowledgable and his opinion will be a very valuable one for you to hear.

One big thing to consider when looking at the different products is the types of CMMs, and other inspection equipment, that you will be programming now and in the future. The NX Inspection programming module is a neutral platform. It uses post processors to format the output so it is easy to customize the code for any machine. PC-DMIS is a good fit for Hexagon-owned machine brands, but not necessarily a good fit for a Zeiss, Mitutoyo, or other brand. The NX module can serve as a common platform from which you can post code to any machine regardless of the OEM metrology software available. This is a huge advantage in environments with mixed CMM brands and also offers flexibility to purchase any type of machine in the future without worrying about a different programming environment.

There are other advantages that we have discussed but I wanted to put that one out there now because it is a big one and might have some impact on your research going forward.

NX 7.5.4, NX 8.0.1.5
Tecnomatix Quality 8.0.1.3
PC-DMIS 2011 MR1

 

[lorenolepi]

Thanks for all the input!!!
I got a trail seat of NX CMM and have started to test it out.
So far I will say it seems fairly straight forward as it is similar to the CAM application. The documentation is decent but wish there was a CAST training available on it. To be honest I haven't gotten a complete handle on all of it yet so I will report back once I can give a good evaluation on it.

 

[DaSalo]

Lorenolepi,

I would be very interested to hear your experiences around the following features:

- Defining a probe (i.e. cluster). This is something that gets done quite frequently so how easy is it? How much effort is involved with defining a collection of tip angles? How readily does the automated functionality select the "best" angle from the collection of angles that you have defined?

- Defining a grid of points on a planar surface with many obstructions. How readily will the software define a grid of points to inspect a plane while avoiding holes, bosses, etc. that interrupt that plane?

- Defining a grid of points on a contoured surface composed of several faces. If you have a single contoured feature that is composed of several different faces how easy is it to inspect the collection of faces as a single feature?

- Avoidance moves. How well does the automated functionality do with avoiding the part? Do you need to go back through and insert avoidance moves to move from one feature to the next or does it work most of that out for you? When you do need to manually create avoidance moves how easy is it to do?

- Head rotations. When executing a program with numerous head rotations how well does the automation do with moving the head to a proper clearance position before executing the rotation? How easy is it to visualize the rotation and the amount of clearance required?

I would be very interested in hearing any other thoughts you have about the software as well. These are just a few things that came to mind that I would be curious to hear another users' opinion of.

Thanks.





NX 7.5.4, NX 8.0.1.5
Tecnomatix Quality 8.0.1.3
PC-DMIS 2011 MR1

 

[jvanwhy]

Hello - sorry I'm getting into this a little late. I just ran across this thread and it has inspired me to join this community. We have been using this product for over 15 years now. We are actually still using a very old version of the software because of the complexities involved with upgrading cmm software and the interaction involved between the programming side and the machine execution side. We run LK CMM's here. Your question regarding can the post processing be tweaked. I am assuming you are referring to evaluation of the data after inspection. I can say that is one of the strong points of the software. You can do just about anything with the data after the run. Provided you have measured the feature and have traveled the learning curve. I feel the post run analysis flexibility is truly one of the strong points of this software (at least for us - we make castings).

I will point out the sticker shock gets worse. In the newer releases the ability to test job files offline has been removed from the programming side. In order to test programs you now need to have an additional seat of the inspection side (previously shop floor) or steal the inspection seat from the floor (I am not familiar with running the software any other way). This licensing change alone has stopped us from moving forward upgrading past the NX 5 version which was the last version including the test capability in the offline programming. Watch the licensing too, there was an unprecedented and incredibly steep price increase for the product re-packaging. In the neighborhood of 30%. Make sure you fully understand the costs if budget is an issue.

-- John

 

[DaSalo]

jvanwhy,

We have experienced the same issues with the upgrade only our reseller did not alert us to the loss in execution functionality until it was too late. Talk about sticker shock...and that was just to keep the funcionality we already had.

The product that we have been discussing here is the new NX CMM inspeciton module. It is the replacement for Tecnomatix Quality but it is a completely different product. The new product shares almost nothing with the legacy product. The programming interface is almost identical to NX CAM. VCL is completely gone now. Everything is DMIS. I believe the MTI structure for execution is gone and replaced by Inspect NX, or something like that. You can post-out code appropriate to PC-DMIS, Calypso, CAMIO, or whatever other OEM software you are using. It uses postprocessors just like the CAM module so you can creat an inspection program in NX and post it out in multiple formats to run on different CMMs with different OEM software.

At this point there is no reporting and analysis package for the new module. You can bridge back to the functionality available in Tec-Quality.

NX 7.5.4, NX 8.0.1.5
Tecnomatix Quality 8.0.1.3
PC-DMIS 2011 MR1

 

[DaSalo]

Correction to my previous post:

I stated that it is possible to post-out code that can be run by CALYPSO. I have been corrected offline by someone who knows this end of things very well and it is actually not possible to post code that will be run by CALYPSO directly. This is due to the fact that CALYPSO uses a proprietary file format and the DMIS import functionality is not well developed. It is possible to use the NX CMM programming module to create code for a Zeiss machine but it will be run through a different Zeiss software product, not CALYPSO.

NX 7.5.4, NX 8.0.1.5
Tecnomatix Quality 8.0.1.3
PC-DMIS 2011 MR1

 

[ValentJim]

I also have experience with Technomatix and DaSalo is correct in the fact that this software is rare. I have had to use trial and error to learn about the total funtionality(term used loosly) and still do not know eveything about it. It is not an extremely user friendly system. We have lost more than a few programs due to unrecoverable errors. I have found work arounds for a few that have prevented the loss of days worth of work but I hope NX CMM will be better. We run all Zeiss CMMs. The only real down fall we have seen with the propietary software is calibration. We use calypos which has to be calibrated and have not figured out a way to migrate calibration data to inspection exicution or rather the DME interface.
DaSalo,

do you have frequent corruption problems with technomatix?