Approval free alternate energy tie ins ?? 2

[2dye4]

Why can't you go to your home improvement store and buy an alt energy system and use it to offset your homes power usage.

The utilities don't like it that's why.
The main reason cited is line worker safety from back feeding the grid. If that is the only drawback I have the solution.

Why cannot the utility place a Power line carrier signal on their lines that travel through the grid and find their way to the utility intertie inverter that refuses to supply power without seeing it.

Presto. If a grid source breaks the alt sources go down automatically as a result of loss of the carrier signal.

This should not be a serious technological problem and it would allow off the shelf purchases of Alt energy systems to be purchased and tied into the grid for lowering utility bills.

When the consumer can see it and touch it and take it home and use it there would be much higher uptake of alt energy systems and the savings would mount silently.

Any reason this wouldn't work.

 

[davidbeach]

Not all electric utilities are opposed to customer generation, but even then, safety and impacts on other customers weigh heavily.

 

[tinfoil]

Here in Ontario, ANY customer can install PV generators, and be paid $0.42Cdn {about $0.35USD} per kwH, IF they install a separate meter and IF they follow safety requirements. We are NOT seeing a rush of people connecting because the paybacks are still in the 17-20 year range.

 

[jghrist]

Here in Ontario, ANY customer can install PV generators, and be paid $0.42Cdn {about $0.35USD} per kwH, IF they install a separate meter and IF they follow safety requirements. We are NOT seeing a rush of people connecting because the paybacks are still in the 17-20 year range.

According to

http://www.energyshop.com/electricity-prices-Toronto-residential.cfm

regulated residential rates are about $0.06/kWh. So let me get this straight. The utility is required to pay a PV generator $0.42 to generate a kWh that goes to his neighbor who pays $0.06 for it. And the utility still has to have all the facilities available to generate, transmit, and distribute the energy anytime from other sources. And it still isn't economical for the PV generator!

Who provides the other $0.36?

 

[itsmoked]

That would be pretty harsh!

In my area PG&E runs the show. They have pretty much disposed of all their generation. They still have some odd stuff. (nukes and geothermal)

I would think PV from homes should allow them to reduce their capital outlays for new power plants.

They still charge "transportation" charges. If you pumped 2x the power you use monthly onto the grid they'd still charge you for a connection (transportation).

Keith Cress
kcress -

http://www.flaminsystems.com

 

[LionelHutz]

I'm a little late but I recall that the OK4U didn't meet the UL standard for properly islanding and it's now long gone. It was a good idea in theory though but I'm sure the utility concerns were part of the reason it didn't get replaced with another model (plus maybe it didn't sell enough to justify further development??)

Remember the Xantrex recall because one model of their inverter did not island correctly? It was a pretty stand-up recall but it still points to the potential hazards.

But, back when I was reading about this stuff a lot more, the only cases I read of the utility PV switch being opened was during the IBEW strike in some area of California where the line workers were going around and locking off PV systems as part of their strike action.

I've always believed utility workers worked on the lines using live line practices unless they disconnected and grounded the lines. The lines are assumed live until grounded so they would not bother to open a PV disconnect but rather just test for dead at the work site and then install grounds.

 

[stevenal]

OSHA says to isolate all sources prior to testing and grounding.

 

[itsmoked]

Personally I think the islanding thing is blown way out of proportion, as a boogie man, (barrier) for the PoCos.

99.999999% of the islands would instantly take out any paltry back-feed source. Sources like the OK4U would likely have issues with just energizing an unloaded 5 house pole transformer.

A small 2kW solar unit is also going to choke on the same scenario, trying to run 4 or 5 typical homes.

And of course, as pointed out, why would someone work on an un(safety)grounded system?

Keith Cress
kcress -

http://www.flaminsystems.com

 

[2dye4]

I gather from this thread that the political/economic aspects of approval free tie ins are far more problematic than the technical aspects of maintaining grid safety and power quality with homeowner installed systems.

I am quite astonished at the open admission that alt power for the grid is unwanted by the utilities.

Guess it has to wait for another time.

 

[cranky108]

No one is stoping you from going off grid.

In fact I encurage people who think they can make power cheeper than the utility to go for it.

Just know that regulations and codes hurt us as much as they help us and the same for our customers (Call your congressman now).

 

[2dye4]

Cranky

What you you think of a house powered primarily by alternate energy but with an additional device that pulled ( one way ) grid power when it was needed to supplement the alt source. I find it hard to imagine utilities could prevent the installation and usage of such a device.
Comments??

 

[cranky108]

The question is how the one way device works. And most utilities would ask the same question to make sure there isen't a backfeed problem.

If you had a break-before-make device the utilities would not mind. But you might very annoyed with it.

Depending on how much supplement you need there is always a IC engine option that would not involve a utility (Maybe natural gas).

The problem here isen't size of your facility, it is the argument that we have to treat all customers the same. It is a legal thing most utilities face.

 

[EEJaime]

We specify and construct Photovoltaic systems all the time. We even have one in the final design stages for a local utility company here at their headquarters complex. These are very straightforward systems tied to the facilities' main power distribution system through an inverter. These systems are comparitively small with respect to the facilities' service size, so though they do produce green power, the impact, real as it is, is nominal. We get LEEDS points, the utility company demonstrates it's commitment to Alternate energy sources with their investment in a system that in reality will never pay back as the equipment's useful life is less than the economic payback period. Everyone's happy, (with the possible exception of Utility Company maintenance staff whom have to deal with the system).

Many years ago, (1990), we installed a PV system for a US Post Office building in our local desert. It is still running. It is also inverted, with the required protective relays, etc.... and would be about to pay back, but it is now time to replace some of the equipment,and needless to say, the USPS has no budget for doing is in the upcoming fiscal year. We'll see.

The only residential energy generation systems I've seen as viable are solar water heating, solar charged, battery powered exterior lighting, and other small point of use systems. With some of the DIY installations I've seen, it seems to me that the fewer people we have trying to become their own utilities, the better.

 

[davidbeach]

Why is it that people think that they should be able to generate their own electricity and have the power company willingly accept the output with - as far as the proponents are concerned - little or no say about it? What if I have a municipal water source to my house and decide to put in a well. Now with this well, I can produce (make up numbers here) 5gpm, my house averages 1.5gpm but can peak at 10gpm. So, I can pump water back into the municipal system most of the time, but sometimes I need to draw on the municipal system. Water is water, right? No problems, right? You really want a bunch of unregulated homeowners supplying your municipal drinking water?

 

[cranky108]

Good greef, there are limits to everything, other wise the fist fight would never stop.

Utility companys are granted sole providership, with set limits, and requirments. All parties involved, utility company and customers must accept those limits and requirments.
And all parties must accept that the sole providership was granted to generly reduce the cost of service to the customer.

Times have changed, and utilities, within limits, must accept customer generation. Customers with generation must accept the utilitiy requirments, that have been approved by the regulating body.

My concern here is customers with, and without generation putting so much trash on the power line that the other customers complain to the regulating body.

I also have a beef with wind power because it usually arrives when it is least needed, and defetes the purpose of lower cost energy to the customers.

 

[2dye4]

""And most utilities would ask the same question to make sure there isen't a backfeed problem.""

Cranky.
One scenario is a alt source generating 140-180 VDC feeding a sinewave inverter and powering household loads. The DC bus is supported by a grid connected, power factor corrected rectifier. Thus no chance of reverse flow and grid support for alternate energy sources. This makes a transparent to the user alternate source that can lower bills when the power is available. Critical to keep the inverter losses low.

""Why is it that people think that they should be able to generate their own electricity and have the power company willingly accept the output with - as far as the proponents are concerned - little or no say about it?""

davidbeach.
Legally i suppose you are right as it makes the utility an partner to an economic transaction they have no control over.

Final note
Why should a consumer be REQUIRED to purchase all his electricity from a government run company. The utility can decide to exit the ongoing transaction if they wish to and this is their right also.

Common sense would dictate that sharing of scattered generation would lower the cost of required new distribution and generation equipment and thus be a source of economic efficiency. The distributed nature of the sources would statistically negate their individual influences much the way this happens with loads. Don't forget that loads are also influenced by weather although at a slower rate due to heat storage within buildings.

In any case i have my answer.
There are no technical blocks to off the shelf alternative energy systems needing no utility permissions, only political and economic ones.

Thanks all

 

[sibeen]

Final note
Why should a consumer be REQUIRED to purchase all his electricity from a government run company. The utility can decide to exit the ongoing transaction if they wish to and this is their right also.

I don't think anyone is required to purchase their electricity form a government, or even a private run company. Set up your own off-grid system and see if anyone cares.

it just happens to be a lot cheaper for the vast majority of users to use a central style distribution system.

 

[cranky108]

Granted taking both sources of power to DC and uning an inverter is possible and acceptable to probally most utilities. It does however have it's share of problems that should be addressed, or understood.

In most areas the power lines and transformers, and meters are owned by the utility, so the utility is involved in any transaction over there equipment (7-11 dosen't give you anything for free).

Some of the problems with customer owned energy sources are the costs utilities are required to pay are more than they are allowed to charge other customers. And there is a rare case where if the total generation on a feeder is equivlent to or greater than from the source substation, it can become difficult to detect a fault on that circuit. Also even if the circuit is disconnected from the substation the ganeration could self support the circuit possibility at some frequency or voltage level other than within the required standards (say lawsuits).

So utilities do have an interest in knowing what customers have that could possibility create problems for other customers. Which is why the normal maximum generation on a feeder is limited to around 10 to 20% of the feeder load.

 

[stevenal]

"Final note
Why should a consumer be REQUIRED to purchase all his electricity from a government run company. The utility can decide to exit the ongoing transaction if they wish to and this is their right also."

The publicly regulated utilities cannot exit an ongoing transaction without some sort of cause, such as non-payment. Utilities may be monopolies, but they are regulated as such. You seem to be ignoring this little detail.

 

[2dye4]

Guys we may not be communicating.

Do I have the right to augment my household electricity with alternative energy without the approval of the Utility.

If you answer NO then I interpret this to mean I have to purchase from the utility.

Do they have the right to cut me off if I choose to utilize some alternate sources to lower my power bill.

If yes I interpret this to mean that I DO have to purchase all my electricity from the utility.

Keep in mind i am not proposing a grid TIE system after the above posts. I am proposing a power augmentation system with NO possibility of affecting the grid other than drawing power from it.
It's technically possible to do.

Lets clear the air about whether the market is FREE or not.

It really is an academic exercise as if I choose to install an augmentation system and the utility cuts me off, a public relations nightmare is in their future.

Headline
UTILITY CUTS OFF HOMEOWNER FOR USING SOLAR POWER!!!!

 

[cranky108]

Utilities really don't care if you have solar power. But if you or you in combonation with other people make a bad condition, then they are obligated to make you fix it, or cut you off.
If however you push power back into the grid without telling them, and the newer meters will tell on you, they will probally just not pay you for the energy (Or they will give you a stern talking to by someone who thinks he is super (the name super-visor usually dosen't apply).

The usual attitude is pay your bill and don't make waves.