Architects do the drawings 3

[JMASE]

I've had some success negotiating with architects, where they agree to do the final drawings with sketches, notes and schedules provided by me.
It has the advantage of eliminating the time suck of final drawing preparation, allowing me to concentrate on the engineering. I, of course, review and redline their drawings BTW: I'm a solo practitioner. Any opinions on this practice?

 

[StrucPatholgst]

I have yet to see an architect properly detail out a structural drawing or size anything properly. The architects around my parts literally size their footings using the Decks.com calculator. I have one project right now where an architect botched the sizing for a support beam and footings in an 1895 Victorian, and now the whole inner core of the structure has settled 2 inches in just under 7 years. I had another one two years ago where the architect undersized the beams in an open concept project, and the second floor settled 2.5 inches

 

[JAE]

It's quicker just to do it right the first time.

 

[IRstuff]

Yeah, never understood why architects got a pass for that sort of thing, while actual engineers got the short shrift.

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[phamENG]

I hate this model. I've done it a time or two for really good clients - the ones who don't usually ask for it, but every once in a while they have a super small project and they need a single beam, or maybe a braced wall design. Those are fine. But a whole building? That usually turns into a $&^@ show.

My opinion may be influenced by the fact that, in a situation like this, I can't stamp the drawing when it's done. But I don't like it anyway. The details never look quite right, there's always some 'architectural' flare to them that detracts from what is being shown. They try to include them in their details, which can make them cluttered and illegible. It's a mess.

Better to develop your own drafting standards and either draw it yourself or hire a freelancer/drafting company to do the drawings for you.

 

[kipfoot]

To add to the chorus of detractors:

Because it's your client, you can admonish them only so much for not presenting things graphically the way you want. Like, "the leader arrow should point to the line that designates the beam. We do not call this a 'footer plan'. show the reinforcing darker. get the batt insulation off the structural detail. we show the beam size on the plan not on the section. that's not what a weld symbol looks like. etc etc etc etc."

Also, I don't mind presenting my hand drawn sketches when it's the most expedient way of communicating. If I've taken the time to draw something and add notes in a way that someone else can read and understand it, then it's good to go without going through the filter of an intern architect's drafting skills. At that point, I can put the sketches on a title block and issue it myself.

 

[JMASE]

OK,
First, StrucPatholgst, you seem to be deliberately ignoring the premises of my question (they draft, I engineer) in order to take a cheap shot at architects in general. If you don't like or respect them, then don't ask for their business....simple.

To phamENG's point about hiring a freelancer, I don't see much difference in the work flow. If the architect (vs. freelancer) can take drawing direction (and most can) then they own the production schedule and I can use my limited time/fee to do what's important rather than draft (and not have to pay a freelancer). That's the point I was asking about.

 

[phamENG]

It's quite different. Both functionally and, in some states, legally.

Functionally - kipfoot broke it out pretty nicely. They are your client. They hired you. Their ability to take criticism of their work is likely going to be much more limited than the other way around. After all, they are not beholden to you. You are beholden to them. If they decide they don't like working with you, they go find another engineer and you're left without work. If the same thing happened with a freelancer, you haven't lost any work. Sure, finding a replacement might be a hassle, but at least you're not trying to find a new one while also not having work to do.

Architectural drafting and structural drafting are NOT the same. Sure, you use the same tools, but the way things are shown are quite different. Attempting to retrain an architectural draftsman to show it correctly will be a pain. And assuming it works, you'll have limited return on your investment. You'll only be able to use that person when you're doing jobs with that client and you get that draftsman. So you may end up having to 'train' 5 or 6 people rather than one or two (or none, if you find an experienced structural drafter to work with), or just providing your CAD standard to a drafting firm and leaning on their managers to train and enforce your written standard.

Legally, it matters in some places. Here, for instance, I can't seal anything that is produced by somebody who is not an employee of or contractor hired by the firm that I work for. That means the architectural firm would have to be under contract to me, but that's not how it works on any of my projects. They are prime and I'm under contract to them. I imagine having two contracts in place would be a bit of a mess and make for a bit of a legal quagmire if anything ever went bad.

 

[StrucPatholgst]

You seem to be deliberately ignoring the premises of my question (they draft, I engineer)

Yes, I did miss your premise, unfortunately. My bad. (But there are architects out there that do deserve to be called out.)

If you don't like or respect them, then don't ask for their business....simple.

I do forensic work, so I don't really rely upon architects for any work. Someone calls with a concern or an outright problem, and I do my work and develop a repair plan and any drawings. I don't do new construction for the most part. I might work with an architect on new construction twice a year at most, but he's a friend of mine and my deliverable is the calculation set.

 

[glass99]

We work that way in the facades world all the time (ie arch drawings based on my sketches), but there is a performance spec behind it with final engineering responsibility assumed by the contractor.

 

[dik]

Unless you have a good drafter, I find it's easier to do the drawings myself. I've worked with some drafters where you can describe what you want and they can provide a fairly decent drawing.

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[Enhineyero]

On the surface, it might look that you will be saving time. But I reckon this is a false saving as you will spend a good amount of time 'teaching' architects how to draw structural drawings plus reviewing/checking their drawings. Also consider that they are 'tracing' your sketches & they wont pick up missing details or constructability issues of the engineering design while they are drafting your sketches. Drawings will probably need to be adjusted once you have a closer look at detailed drawings. More work for you & more work for them.

For this to be a worthwhile endeavor the person (not the business) you are teaching must be in it for the long run. Once that person leaves or you work with a different person, then you essentially have to go back and start again.