Are electric vehicles really sustainable? 2

[Bronzeado]

Hi folks,

Returning after long time away from the electric sector.

The question is: "Are the electric vehicles really sustainable?"

Sorry if this was discussed before.

Best Regards,

Herivelto S. Bronzeado
Brasília, Brazil

https://www.linkedin.com/in/heriveltobronzeado/

 

[Hoxton]

Depends what you mean, I was surprised my self to realize that 50% of car emissions are not from the engine per the Mayor of Londons Environmental Strategy

I can post if you wish[pre][/pre]

 

[itsmoked]

Why wouldn't they be if ultimately all the power supplied to them is, say, solar?

Keith Cress
kcress -

http://www.flaminsystems.com

 

[cuky2000]

The live cycle production an operation of an EV vs.the conventional fuel cars need to be analyzed in details and that should include cost and environment aspect before to fully answer if this is a sustainable option. Some of the key factors to consider are:

1) Efficiency: EVs convert over 77% of the electrical energy from the grid to power at the wheels. Conventional gasoline vehicles only convert about 12%–30% of the energy stored in gasoline to power at the wheels.

2) Power Sources: Fossil power plants are more efficient than car combustion engine and many of them are hydro, nuclear, wind that can be considered less pollutant.

3) Storage energy: Current car battery can operate in average 10 to 15 years. There are indication of progress in storage energy technology improving capacity, cost and future disposal.

It does appears that EVs have promising future to be a sustainable option to the conventional fuel cars.

 

[bacon4life]

EVs seem like they have promise for being more sustainable than gasoline powered cars. However, comparing the environmental impact of gasoline cars vs electric cars examines only part of overall sustainability question. For example, I suspect raising the per capita car ownership rate from the world average of 0.23 to the Finish rate of 1.07 is unsustainable no matter the energy storage method. Building roads and parking lots have huge environmental costs. Spaces designed for cars tend to work poorly for individual humans and for nature in general.

A life-cycle cost analysis would also consider how EVs impact behavior. For example, EV's tend to have higher upfront costs and very low per-mile-costs. This results in a perverse economic incentive for EV cars to travel more miles than gasoline cars. Once a person invests in the fixed costs of an EV, they also have a much lower economic incentive to use alternative transport modes such as biking, walking, carpooling or choosing a closer alternative.

A life cycle cost analysis also needs to consider a changing fuel mix for charging EV's. Currently folks are encouraged to charge at home overnight, which may end being either fossil fuel or hydro that could be store for later use. As solar PV proliferates, eventually it may be better to have folks charge at work from mid-morning to early-afternoon as this would help dampen out the duck curve.

 

[jfpe]

I also wonder about the environmental impact of battery manufacturing and how recyclable/reusable they are. I worry about all the lithium batteries ending up in the landfill in 10 years.

-JFPE

 

[emarch]

Leaving apart the very real concerns left in the chat today, I was told that a fully electric vehicle, will need to charge with a minimum apparent power of no less than 8KVA during no less than 4 hours to get the battery decently charged.

The actual power needed by a standard family house is around 3.5 KVA... that makes very difficult that actual electrical supplies could be able to charge an electric vehicle in a reasonable time, as they are right now.

If every house is changed to be able to use that much power.. from where is this coming from? A lot of new power generation facilities, whichever is the origin, will be necesary, and also the lines and substations for a proper power evacuation.

I think that these are very good news to the Electrical sector..

Eduardo Marchesi

 

[davidbeach]

I don't know where 3.5kVA comes from but it seems really low. I'm one of nine customers on a 75kVA transformer and I'm sure that at peak times it runs in excess of 75kVA; so over 8kVA per customer would be a piece of cake. Normal usage from 2300-0300 is much lower than during the day. New, increased, load will provide the funding to increase the capacity of the power system. As long as there isn't a radical step change in system load profiles I don't think it's going to be a problem.

 

[bacon4life]

Eduardo- Most folks do not fully deplete the battery each day. A typical EV can go about 175 km on a 32 kWh charge. The average daily driving distances in the USA is less than 50 km, which would require roughly 8 kWh. Many folks in my area are skipping the install of a level 2 charger and just using a 120V level 1 charger rated 1.4 kW.

Echoing David's comment, you may be mixing average power requirements with peak power requirements. Several years ago I was quite worried about everyone plugging their EVs in at 6 pm when they arrived home from work. Thankfully, even if David and his neighbors all had EVs with chargers capable of 8 kW, this would not mean 72 kW additional load on the transformer. EVs now come with an app where the driver programs in what time they want the car to charge. Mostly likely, the cars are going to charge overnight. At a rate of 8 kW, each average EV is only going to charge for around 1 hour. I have been thoroughly relieved to see that most customers, most of the time, charge during off-peak hours. My region does not have time of use rates or any other direct economic incentive, so I assume charging patterns are even better in regions that provide economic incentives for specific charging behavior.

In the short term for EV penetrations of at least 20%, very little new T&D infrastructure will be needed since the EVs use off-peak power. In my region, the load forecast for electric utilities in actually negative for the next two decade since continued energy efficiency improvements will than offsets the new EV loads. By the time EVs loads start having a significant impact on T&D infrastructure, we may have switched to daytime charging to soak up excess solar PV production.

Every time I work on a road related project I am reminded how tiny the electric grid is compared to the road network. Updating the power grid to handle EVs is somewhat trivial compared to building and maintaining the roads for those EVs.

 

[itsmoked]

That's some great insights bacon! I'd never really thought that thru.

Keith Cress
kcress -

http://www.flaminsystems.com

 

[Bronzeado]

Hi folks

Thank you for all the insights in this matter.

All world is thinking to use electric vehicles.
Indeed, it's essential to study the life cycle of electric vehicles so as to demonstrate the sustainability since their manufacturing until disposal after life time.
Also, it should be considered the energy losses in the supply system from the sources to the EV charging points.

Hoxton, post the the Mayor of Londons Environmental Strategy material for us, please!

Best Regards,

Herivelto S. Bronzeado
Brasília, Brazil

https://www.linkedin.com/in/heriveltobronzeado/

 

[Mbrooke]

IMO- go 100% nuclear and it will be worth it.