Are these trends happening anywhere else? 34

[DayRooster]

I am noticing some trends that are making my head scratch. Maybe it’s just my region but I’m curious if others are seeing similar trends. First off I’m a structural engineer with 12 years experience in the US. I am happy where I’m currently employed (hasn’t anyways been the case). That being said I know they are trying to hire other structural engineers (entry, mid and senior) and it has been tough. Really hurting for some mid-level engineers. I have talked to the few colleagues that are still in the profession and it’s the same situation at their current employers. I looked online and the local job listings are flooded with job after job in structural engineering (mainly mid level and senior). Also, all I see are good structural engineers, that I know, either retiring or leaving the profession after 5-10 years. The ratio of people leaving to coming in is not adding up. From everything I have seen the ranks are getting thin. At the same time I’m not seeing pay go up to really incentive people to stick with the profession. In addition, I know of certain employers just forcing more work on their already overloaded staff. Also, every effort of offshoring I have seen has gone horrible due to poor design and coordination (not on my projects). Maybe I’m in some weird bubble but this seems like red flag after red flag. Is anyone else noticing these same trends? Or is the rest for the US more stable?

 

[3DDave]

It does not surprise me. Middle and upper management has been overtaken by those who judge the quality of projects based on profit margin and not on anything else. I don't see any process that can change that trend.

 

[MIStructE_IRE]

I’m based in Ireland and it sounds exactly the same as that. There’s a problem coming down the line and no one seems to have the answer

 

[structuralCADspecialist]

In Canada there is kind of a surplus of Engineers but at the same time always jobs available. Lots of Engineers from other countries actually come here to work, for better or worse. The typical engineering office is run very inefficiently so the amount of hours spent on each project is quite high (while, ironically, overall quality is relatively low). What I'm getting as is that engineering firms aren't very competitive yet are still able to pay decent wages and not only stay in business, but grow. If you're good at interviews and have work experience that will catch an employers eye, I would say landing a job that pays $60,000 - $75,000 CND is achievable, and even higher if the skill set is right. A smaller firm in my city was recently looking for a new Partner and offering $100,000 CND (+ incentives hopefully). ~multiply these numbers by 0.80 to convert to USD~

Some firms even offer wages as low as $45,000 CND for new grads or the types of engineers who make absolutely zero progress and aren't even worth the $45,000 (it makes me feel mean to type that but in reality such people would be better off in a profession they are more skilled at). In a nutshell, basically every and any role can be filled but the quality of candidate will vary.

There are lots of jobs and also lots of candidates. Lots of turn-over as well. I was told that one office has turn-over of 50% of their staff per year. Job quality itself is usually pretty low but that's not a given.

One trend I noticed in Western Canada is that many engineers also have licenses for other provinces and states. They seem to take on additional work from other jurisdictions (again... for better or worse, as we have a few firms that are pretty bad here). The opposite is rarely true, but would be a welcome change as I'd like to compare both the quality and approach of engineers in those jurisdictions.

 

[phamENG]

DayRooster - sounds about right. I'm on the east coast, and there are quite a few ads out for licensed structural engineers with 5-15 years of experience. I get contacted pretty frequently on LinkedIn by recruiters looking to fill positions.

Assuming you went the traditional route of 4 years of college and straight to work, we're about the same age but you're a few years ahead of me as I did a stint in the military first. I was lucky - most of my friends who graduated college in '09 couldn't get work in any field and were forced into grad school. Several junior engineers at the time were laid off. So right in the sweet spot of enough experience/maturity to function on a quasi-independent basis but still not too expensive is a large body of engineers who were effectively lost to the '08 financial crisis. Combine that with 'lean staffing' trends in the past decade and retirement of the older generations of engineers and we have a significant staffing problem. Let's hope we can leverage it into higher fees and pay eventually (these things rarely happen quickly).

 

[MotorCity]

The worker shortage extends beyond the structural engineering realm......restaurant workers, assembly line workers, you name it. Heck, even my weekly garbage collection is delayed up to a week sometimes. Everyone is looking for help, be it due to a decline of interest in the field or Covid related (but that's another topic with plenty of threads).

 

[DayRooster]

Thanks everyone for the feedback. I wouldn’t say it changes anything for me. Just more of a curiously thing, is all.

Also MotorCity, I agree that other industries are feeling similar pains. I was once a restaurant worker in my past so I could see how the struggles are real there too. That being said, let’s say restaurant workers find some way to incentivize people back to the industry. I could see the industry rebounding relatively quickly. From what I’m seeing in the structural engineering field seems to allude to longer lasting effects. Even if employers try to incentivize people more, has too much damage been done? Would a large wave of new graduate structural engineers even be enough to help out when you consider the time to licensure. Also, last I checked students aren’t lining up for engineering and if they are, it doesn’t seem to be for structural engineering. I don’t have any answers about it. Just more observations is all.

Side note: while I was typing this a recruiter just tried to connect with me online (lol). This is the second one just for today. I’ll be telling them the same thing I tell all the other ones. Currently not interested…

 

[DayRooster]

structuralCADspecialist - I am not familiar with the Canada market but reading what you posted is very interested. In comparison, most US offices I have seen are very lean with little “fat”. Forces high productivity without wages too much higher than Canada. Also add to the factor that cost of healthcare is high and education will cost you a kidney to payoff Overall, it seems like Canada is better off to weather a storm though. Seems like the workers are there is they need to staff up.

 

[JoshPlumSE]

In addition, I know of certain employers just forcing more work on their already overloaded staff.

I think that's an example of poor management. There is an easy solution. Don't bid on jobs that will over-stretch your work force.

Granted, it's sometimes feast or famine. Management wants to keep the clients you already have and not encourage them to find other engineers. So, they accept work that they shouldn't.

 

[WARose]

I've been seeing what you are talking about for years. Another thing I've been seeing is a lack of good designers.....and/or people who will ask them to do something besides pick up red lines.

 

[EZBuilding]

WARose, the mid level to senior years of experience range you mention somewhat coincide with the great recession. I would assume there was a substantial lack of recent graduates around that time frame hired and likely many engineers that were laid off that went into other ventures.

Anecdotally I graduated with a Bachelors in 2011 and couldn't find any public job postings in my region for structural engineering. I stuck around at my internship and doubled down with my masters and got the single job in my area that was advertising publicly for structural engineering in 2013. The sector in my region has not seen a slow down since. Public job postings are now frequently posted and I have more recruiter connections on Linkedin than actual colleagues. Construction costs have balloned over this past decade or so, but design fees have maintained constant with deliverable expectations increasing substantially.

 

[WARose]

I think you are right EZBuilding.

I had a recruiter with a local job shop tell me once that I was the only structural engineer in my age bracket [15-25 years] that he knew of (i.e. that was ever available for contract work). That may something about the business, or possibly me (or both ).

 

[Enhineyero]

It is likely due to peak in the building construction cycle brought about by lower cost of borrowing or due to the cash being pumped into the financial system, not necessarily a shortage.

I would only see this as a real shortage when actual engineering fees go up, at the moment they are pretty much stagnant.

 

[DayRooster]

Enhineyero,

Maybe it’s not a shortage and just what I’m seeing in my bubble. Last two weeks: recruiters have been wild, a senior engineer retired from my company, and a close structural engineer friend of mine (12 years) said he was hanging up his hat.

 

[human909]

For what it is worth here are the Australian salaries for engineers. $1AUD = $0.75USD
(The extra of total package includes social security and other perks such as a company car.)

Structural engineers are at the bottom of this list. However I don't think that is particularly a reflection of the reality. As many of the other job categories the such as Mechanical/Mechatronics/Aeronautic are much less common. Sure you might have a Mechanical Engineering degree but good luck getting a job here AS a mechanical engineer!

Graduate salaries are all pretty similar.

That said I do get the feeling that in many large firms they get the younger staff to do all the grunt work and only a few rise break though the ceiling into the higher levels. So it wouldn't surprise me if a fair few get sick of the mundane work and move onto other roles such as site engineer, project engineer or project management.

I'm out of the loop of mainstream structural engineers as I'm cutting my own path which is working okay for me at the moment.

 

[NorthCivil]

A long time ago in university i was torn between civil & electrical. I went civil>structural. If I could do it over again, I would have done electrical and gone into tech. It seems most kids these days feel the same. I talk to my friend who teaches in the high schools, kids these days arent interested in woodworking or metal shop, they are all into programming. I talk to my professor friend in the university, he says civil doesnt attract the brightest of the bunch, it attracts the ones who cant score well on their maths and physics and want to go through engineering school with the least of both they can do (civil is seen as the "easy" topic).

Not enough experienced people in the construction industry, not enough people at all, just means projects running with skeleton crews and the buck being passed to any party willing to carry it. I see it all the time. projects where the engineer is going well outside his role. and usually for free.

 

[structuralCADspecialist]

Structural Engineering isn't a dead end by any means. I think things will improve. You'll see me on here often preaching about more efficient designs and working more closely with Architects/builders/blah blah blah... I think there's actually lots of money left on the table. Much of it being lost in the vicious cycle of owners paying the lowest possible fees, getting the lowest quality work, and losing value through inefficiencies throughout the building process. The owner/developer simply budgets the same way on the next project and the cycle begins again. Call me a sadist but I was actually excited to see high lumber prices.

The more 'risky' structural engineering pays much better (usually). That being temporary works. I believe that most schooling pretty much ignores temporary works, cranes, rigging, etc... Much of that is encroaching into mechanical stuff but much of it's structural.

Many of the most talented designers end up chasing the $$$ and going into management. As a structural engineer you'll have a really good idea of how things go together (well 'should'... many engineers have proven me wrong on that). A talented site supervisor in my area will earn far more than the typical designer. Having to stick around for the finishing work and deficiencies is a big hair pulling but being able to watch every floor of a high rise go up can be a lot of fun.

Working on the ownership side and going into finance could have you driving a nicer car and living in a nicer neighborhood than that "geological" engineer.

 

[dik]

They always post the median salaries... best they post the average... better picture. I enjoy the stuff I do, and have fun with it... but, I would never recommend that someone go into engineering.

Rather than think climate change and the corona virus as science, think of it as the wrath of God. Feel any better?

-Dik

 

[Retrograde]

They always post the median salaries... best they post the average... better picture.

Not really. Salaries tend to follow a pareto distribution, so the median is better than the average.

 

[human909]

The more 'risky' structural engineering pays much better (usually). That being temporary works. I believe that most schooling pretty much ignores temporary works, cranes, rigging, etc... Much of that is encroaching into mechanical stuff but much of it's structural.

Agreed. It is also more interesting too. I've fallen into this area of structural engineering. A jack of all trades in some ways. Though I'm still careful where I step because I still need to build my experience, I have far less experience than most of the regular people posting here.

I know one engineer who is in the business of doing jobs that nobody else wants to touch. Temporary works, forensic engineer, expert witness at trials. I'm sure he could retire if he wanted to, I doubt money is an object for him. But he just loves what he does.

I must say, I'd like to get myself into that sort of position.