Are these trends happening anywhere else? 34

[DayRooster]

I am noticing some trends that are making my head scratch. Maybe it’s just my region but I’m curious if others are seeing similar trends. First off I’m a structural engineer with 12 years experience in the US. I am happy where I’m currently employed (hasn’t anyways been the case). That being said I know they are trying to hire other structural engineers (entry, mid and senior) and it has been tough. Really hurting for some mid-level engineers. I have talked to the few colleagues that are still in the profession and it’s the same situation at their current employers. I looked online and the local job listings are flooded with job after job in structural engineering (mainly mid level and senior). Also, all I see are good structural engineers, that I know, either retiring or leaving the profession after 5-10 years. The ratio of people leaving to coming in is not adding up. From everything I have seen the ranks are getting thin. At the same time I’m not seeing pay go up to really incentive people to stick with the profession. In addition, I know of certain employers just forcing more work on their already overloaded staff. Also, every effort of offshoring I have seen has gone horrible due to poor design and coordination (not on my projects). Maybe I’m in some weird bubble but this seems like red flag after red flag. Is anyone else noticing these same trends? Or is the rest for the US more stable?

 

[Enhineyero]

The more 'risky' structural engineering pays much better (usually)

It may marginally be better but not near enough to what I consider is 'fair'. Don't think we will ever reach that level of fairness with capitalism as fairness doesn't drive capitalism, money-making does. Industries like real estate, investments, and banking do this quite well. If you are in this profession for the money, you will probably be very disappointed.

However, most structural engineers are probably in it for the job not for the pay. Like a true artist.

 

[BulbTheBuilder]

During my undergrad I realised a lot of people didn't like structural engineering. Out of +150 students, we had only about 25-30 students taking structural electives. Almost everyone took transportation/highway and others. I remember months within my first job after my undergrad (around 2017/2018), my boss mentioned structural engineering jobs doesn't really pay despite it being involving so if you want more money think of something else. I completed my master's this Summer (concentration in structural engineering) and again had the least number of students compared to transportation, environmental, and water resources. I have met a couple of senior structural engineers who have switched to other professions such as project management and others and tell me it's very easy and more rewarding.

Another thing about lack of good designers is something I see running through the industry for long even for young and mid-level engineers. [From my own observation] Some people see structural engineering as an easy and quick route to make quick cash with the notion to use spreadsheets and available software to run designs and just submit without proper understanding of mechanics and design concepts. As an immigrant who was/is more familiar with European code of design, I started reading the American design codes and I am kind surprised to see some mid and senior engineers aren't aware of certain basic things in the code which shows they haven't read the code themselves (so I ask myself how they do designs, the answer? spreadsheets and quick software tools. Don't get me wrong, I have met excellent structural engineers as well that I often have chit-chat with regarding design.

I talk to my friend who teaches in the high schools, kids these days arent interested in woodworking or metal shop, they are all into programming. I talk to my professor friend in the university, he says civil doesnt attract the brightest of the bunch, it attracts the ones who cant score well on their maths and physics and want to go through engineering school with the least of both they can do (civil is seen as the "easy" topic)

I did my research in topology optimization which involved coding and programming. Even though it involves mechanics and structures, it way fun and interesting than structural engineering itself and you can make lots of money. I still do the research along side my current industrial work as a volunteer but if I do get sponsorship (to fund the research) or a company mainly into it, I'd wish switch without thinking twice.

 

[cliff234]

Trends I have observed:

Young engineers taking on greater responsibilities earlier in their careers. (This puts an increased burden on experienced engineers to catch their mistakes. It has always been this way, but younger inexperienced engineers today can crank out designs ten time faster using computers than was possible 40 years ago. This puts a greater burden on experienced engineers who oversee the young engineers.)

Over-reliance on software. (Some engineers seem to assume that using software negates the need to use engineering judgement in interpreting the computer results.)

Compressed schedules, fee competition and a perception (by others) that the standard of care is perfection makes our job harder. (Get it done faster, more economical, and for a lower fee - and there better not be any change orders.

Increasingly complex and ever-changing codes and design standards. (Compare the 8 pages of wind load provisions in ANSI A58.1-82 (about 8 pages?) to the 145 pages of wind load provisions in ASCE 7-16.)

Deteriorating communication skills. (We have all of these great tools for enhancing communication - but many people continue to be horrible communicators. (I wonder when mechanical engineers will start using the telephone to call and alert us that they will need beam web penetrations, etc...) Poor communication has contributed to structural failures - such as the tragic Kansas City Hyatt Regency skywalk collapse that killed 114. Poor communication has always been a problem with engineers, but I think it's getting worse.

 

[dik]

Median will likely provide a higher salary... the average may better reflect how underpaid engineers are.

Rather than think climate change and the corona virus as science, think of it as the wrath of God. Feel any better?

-Dik

 

[WARose]

The more 'risky' structural engineering pays much better (usually).

Agreed. What has amazed me is how little commercial work pays. Super tight budgets, ridiculous schedules, working with architects, a lot of different materials, etc, etc.

I had a A&E firm chase me when I was working at a big EPC outfit some years back. And I was at lunch with the partners and I just told them straight out: "Hey, why would I take a 30k/year pay cut to have even tighter schedules than what I have now?" They had no clue what I was making.

So yeah, I tip my hat to the people who last at those companies.

 

[canwesteng]

The average is actually higher than median in that chart. What I want to see is the mode just for the heck of it.

 

[dik]

don't know why... it's not usual... maybe the sample or because it's a commencing salary. I dunno...

Rather than think climate change and the corona virus as science, think of it as the wrath of God. Feel any better?

-Dik

 

[Enable]

The more 'risky' structural engineering pays much better (usually). That being temporary works. I believe that most schooling pretty much ignores temporary works, cranes, rigging, etc... Much of that is encroaching into mechanical stuff but much of it's structural.

I agree that it pays better but I am unsure if I agree with it being more "risky" at least in how I perceive risk. There are more unknowns and items that are hard to quantify as compared to say when one is designing a building. However, cost is usually less of a concern so large safety factors are acceptable and as long as you have experience in designing whatever it is you are designing, those large factors of ignorance provide good cover. In addition, temporary works usually involves only a few items so one can put the appropriate amount of attention to the details. On the other hand, when designing buildings you have soooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo many connections, schedules, members, etc and if any one of those items is subpar it doesn't matter how beautiful the rest of the design is you will have the bus backed up over you. Add to that you are constantly under pressure for faster schedules, lower fees, etc.

I much prefer being able to focus on smaller components with relative intensity even if loading is unknown (because I trust I can bound it well enough) than design an entire building where I need to know 1000s of components and how they interact. It's an impossible task for any mortal to do perfectly and I salute those that try. But to me that's a hell of a lot riskier.

That said, it is true more accidents do happen on my side of the fence so maybe it's a wash. I still prefer it.

CWB (W47.1) Div 1 Fabricator
Temporary Works Design

https://www.enable-inc.com/

 

[Tomfh]

Median salary is usually below average salary. A handful of people on very good salaries pull up the average.

 

[DayRooster]

I do agree that the field has its challenges. I would be ignorant to say it does not. I guess I have kept my head down moving forward for so long that I haven't stopped to look around at the other engineers. I guess my main point is regardless of whether I feel others grievances are legitimate; there seems to be more structural engineers going out the door then coming in. I was just thinking back to my graduating class (from a major state university) and out of the 24 some people that showed some interest in structural design engineering, I can only name 4 that are still practicing (including myself). I can name at least 12 that I know for sure went a different direction. I am sure there has to be certain people I missed but even so. In addition, the first firm I worked at (over ten years ago) had about 12 Structural Engineers. Out of the 12, there are only 3 (maybe 4, not sure if he retired yet) that are still practicing structural engineering. About half retired and the other half left the profession (5-15 year engineers). Now maybe these numbers aren't shocking and this is how it has always been since before my time. But it definitely gave me pause; especially considering everything happening recently. Now what does this all mean? Nothing really...I can't do anything to change anyone's mind that is retiring or leaving the profession. It is more of an observation that I was curious if it was only within my circle. I guess if there isn't some scarcity of structural engineering services out there then it doesn't really matter at all.

 

[Ron]

A few realities from one who's been around a while....

1. Salary compression is and always will be an issue. It's not a bad thing, just something to be aware of and you have to speak up to get through it when you are reviewed for salary purposes.
2. Engineering firms are increasingly being run by accountants (or "business executives") and attorneys, not engineers. This has led to a tendency to place "project managers" in positions above the engineering professionals to ensure profitability on each and every project, without appropriate regard to the engineering decisions necessary and the ethical requirements of engineering. For this reason, I left the corporate engineering world 16 years ago and have no regrets. ALL decisions in my company are made by engineers....not accountants or lawyers.

For many years, I worked for a large company that was founded by engineers and run by engineers for the first 40+ years of its existence. It was both profitable and reputable....internationally. Then it became increasingly focused on profits above engineering. The accountants prevailed because of the projected return of investment if they listened to them. The ROI went down. The reputation tanked. The company was eventually sold. I left before that.

 

[GregLocock]

" a job that pays $60,000 - $75,000 CND is achievable"
I should hope so as that is what my employer pays fresh grads.

Cheers

Greg Locock


New here? Try reading these, they might help FAQ731-376

http://eng-tips.com/market.cfm?

 

[StrucPatholgst]

Just a heads up, there's not only a net negative flux of engineers in the small to big company arenas, there is also a net negative flux of sole proprietor engineers. The older guys that worked out of their house, they are almost all gone now. They are disappearing in my state, off to retirement. There is so much work out there, it's like a faucet. The challenge is not taking on too much work.

 

[structuralCADspecialist]

I agree that it pays better but I am unsure if I agree with it being more "risky"...

You're correct in most cases, depending on how you define risk. When something does go wrong it can be really hard to prove it was the temporary works engineer's fault. It usually doesn't cost a heck of a lot extra to simply increase the factor of safety. And since many components are of very incremental design, they are usually much stronger than the loads they see.
Stuff breaks all the time but it's usually due to things like using damaged formwork, filling wall/column forms too fast (almost every contractor does it) or simply not building to spec. And per most standard contracts the engineer is only required to perform a general conformity inspection; the won't likely be blamed if they didn't see that one shore was missing. More stuff does go wrong which can be hard on some people, whether related to their work performance or not.
I guess what I should have focused on is the fact that not many engineers go into, or know about temporary works. Only a couple firms in my area specialize in temporary works and in general they aren't great at it. There's definitely lots of room for competition to enter the market.

On the other hand, when designing buildings you have soooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo many connections, schedules, members, etc and if any one of those items is subpar it doesn't matter how beautiful the rest of the design is you will have the bus backed up over you. Add to that you are constantly under pressure for faster schedules, lower fees, etc.

I deal with mostly multi-residential that being Concrete and Wood Frame. We'll deal with steel connections for things like ground floor canopies and roof top wind screens. Engineers rely heavily on their typical details (which oddly, and somehow, have gotten worse in recent years). When they have to design a unique connection it gets pretty ugly. In fact they don't really design the most complicated connections as that will be done by the steel supplier. The standard drawing set in my area is a very vague representation of what most engineers on this forum would consider to be a complete structural drawing set. In fact one reason I peruse still these forums (not being a structural engineer nor working in the field anymore) is to gain a general consensus on whether or not this is okay. The structural drawings seem to be degraded in quality and correctness more and more every year.

" a job that pays $60,000 - $75,000 CND is achievable"
I should hope so as that is what my employer pays fresh grads.

The lowest paying job I can find in my area for structural engineering is $50k per year; ironically from a temporary works outfit (who shoots themselves in the feet by way of trying to pay people as little as possible none the less). I know of one company that will try to convince fresh grads that they're only worth $45k per year. Commercial/multi-residential construction tends to pay a lot lower than other sectors. It's probably both the worst and most likely sector that a new grad will end up in.

 

[DayRooster]

Question for all the sole proprietor engineers out there… Are you sensing a shift in the industry and charging more for your work? I would imagine if there is a feeling of “plenty of work” then I would bid projects more aggressively. Unless there was a client I was fond of, then maybe hold for them.

I only see the difficulties of company work. Just curious if profit margins are increasing within the sole proprietor sector. I do agree with StructPatholgst that I do see less and less of these engineers. And I know of plenty of companies that are no bidding (or aggressively bidding) on certain projects due to a lack of engineers…

 

[StrucPatholgst]

Dayrooster, my situation is unique. I have a day job with a medium size firm that sticks strictly to commercial and industrial work, and lets me do residential side work on my own time. My employer is hiring like crazy (or trying to). My side work went from $30k a year to $100k a year in the last 3 years, and hasn't let up. I have not raised side-work prices significantly, since most of the work is with steady clients. It will be interesting to see if the side work ever slows up. It's been pretty steady since fall of 2019.

 

[DayRooster]

StrucPatholgst,

That’s awesome to hear. It sounds like you are satisfied doing what your doing so keep on doing you. I know so many structural engineers that feel like they are losing the fight. Also, it almost sounds like your side job is more lucrative than your 9-5 too!

 

[Retrograde]

don't know why... it's not usual... maybe the sample or because it's a commencing salary. I dunno...

It would be very unusual for the average to be below the median.

 

[3DDave]

Oops.

 

[3DDave]

I already fixed it.