Are understaffed departments and unrealistic project deadlines the norm? 57

[LukeBizzy]

Hello,

I work for a mid size OEM. I feel like my work environment is extremely stressful. If anything it just gets worse as the years go on. Our company has been busy for years. New large scale projects pop up all the time and we make no realistic effort to schedule them. They just get thrown on the pile and often share the same deadlines as the projects we already have. Our manpower is much less than the workload, so we all just run back and forth between projects, putting out the fires of the day. The only way we survive is by cutting corners and releasing minimally checked and subpar designs. I would say that our overall quality of work is not that great, but luckily we haven't had any catastrophes. Our sales numbers increase each year, but our staff levels remain the same or even shrink (i.e. people leave and never get replaced).

I make due working in this environment, but it's takes its toll. I've read many threads on eng-tips and I feel like this topic pops up every once in a while. It seems like a lot of other people are in the same boat. I especially saw a lot of structural engineers complaining about this sort of thing; which shocked me. I naively assumed that companies would not skimp on designs with so much at stake.

Do you guys feel like this is the norm these days? Is this something you'd expect to see in certain industries and not in others? Do you feel like company size plays a role?

I'm looking forward to an interesting discussion.

Thank you.

 

[KENAT]

"Are understaffed departments and unrealistic project deadlines the norm?"

Well, it's certainly a norm. It's been the prevailing situation at my current and former employer. Whether more than 50% of all engineering employers/jobs are like that I'm not sure.

Now I've had some nice pay raises on occasion (22% one year at a former employer when I was still fairly green and extenuating circumstances were in play), a few decent quarterly profit sharing cheques/checks > $1000 net, a few $ significant bonus/awards and on at least one occasion overtime despite being a salaried employee.

However, at times I've felt completely overwhelmed, possibly even whined about it here before.

Certainly the last couple of years have been really bad here and it's only getting worse - I have something like 20 weeks worth of work to do before year end just on 'special orders' let alone planned project activities.

At one point for my former employer I think I was scheduled to do something like 100+ hours work per week according to the top level project plans - may have reached 120 I can't recall. Good news was they actually tried to track that - no such luck here.

Sorry, probably not very constructive, if I had higher self esteem & risk tolerance I'd probably find a different position, but for my limited abilities I make big $ here that come in handy.

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[truckandbus]

Companies can run both ways. In my experience, it seems that departments that focus in r and d tend to have better staffing and more lenient time schedules.

I've never seen a department pull itself out of the understaffed/unreasonable schedule model, even after implementing process improvements (workload from sales/marketing just increased to fill the gap)

I have seen it go the other way, where an organized department becomes victim to overcommitments on projects

 

[IRstuff]

" it seems that departments that focus in r and d tend to have better staffing and more lenient time schedules."

Wish it were true, but I think that's only for stuff that doesn't have an immediate requirement. Otherwise, it's like having a car full of children screaming, "Are we there yet?"

TTFN
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[controlsdude]

This reminds me of this project I was on back in late 90s. I came back from this other project to office. I was brought into office with this other guy that I worked with at the time. We were thrown on this other project that these two guys had burned up most of the hours and had done completely nothing.

I kept hearing every week of this project, "are you done yet?

 

[ajack1]

I do sometimes wonder what people’s expectations are when I read posts on this site.

Things like work smarter but only if it involves a worthwhile profit share or company shares. So how is it acceptable to work dumber for a reasonable salary? If someone at another company with a different culture is prepared to work to the best of their ability for a regular wage and you are not the company you work for will go out of business, assuming investors want to see a certain return and all other things are equal.

Clearly no one should be expected to work stupid hours on a regular basis but on the other side of the coin we as engineers are well paid and professionals so getting the job done is part of the package. By all means fight unacceptable practices but it is called WORK for a reason.

 

[EdStainless]

Most of the places that I have worked were actually fairly good about this.
I can recall one spell though where we all kept lists.
It was projects, with assigned priority, est hrs, and due date.
Every time your boss came to you with another one you handed him the list and asked to cross something off.
And we gave him very realistic completion dates.
Honesty is your only defense.
And never take it personally, even when they fire you.
It is their problem, not yours.


= = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =
Plymouth Tube

 

[IRstuff]

I had a coworker that did that religiously; every time a manager wanted something to be "Top Priority," he'd pull out his notebook and politely ask, "Which of your other "Top Priorities" would you like me to slip schedule on?"

TTFN
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[moltenmetal]

I do sometimes wonder what people’s expectations are when I read posts on this site.

Things like work smarter but only if it involves a worthwhile profit share or company shares. So how is it acceptable to work dumber for a reasonable salary? If someone at another company with a different culture is prepared to work to the best of their ability for a regular wage and you are not the company you work for will go out of business, assuming investors want to see a certain return and all other things are equal.

If one company manages to motivate its employees more than another, such that it wins the competition and puts the other out of business- that's the market at work. If you're an employee of the losing company and are propping it up by your own extra efforts, maybe that makes sense to you- maybe you like the job, or the location, or are afraid you won't find something else, or are working toward advancement etc. (not much point in that case, because the company is ultimately toast...) Your effort, your choice. Just don't call me "unprofessional" if I see my labour as something of value such that I am NOT willing to consistently give more than the contracted quantity of it for free! In fact, THIS is what defines a professional- a professional works for hire. They SELL their services. People who work for free for the love of it have an entirely different name- they're called amateurs, which is a word with a rather obvious Latin root.

Employment is a contract: you get to rent my efforts for x hours per week on average, in return for my salary and other benefits. If you can find someone willing to work harder or smarter for the same money or less, you are within your rights to dismiss me, pay me a severance, and put the other person to work in my place. If I find another company willing to pay me more, or give me something else of greater value to me in return for my services, I'm free to give notice and leave. I'm salaried rather than hourly, so if there is a bit of work required to meet a deadline, attend a meeting that goes after hours etc., no problem- it's not a strict cash-for-hours deal- same of course if I take a long lunch or a course etc. But expecting 20% extra hours per week consistently without additional compensation- that's entirely another matter!

If what you want is a business partner rather than an employee, who sees the business as partially theirs (i.e. has a real sense of ownership) and is willing to put in the extra effort to make it a success, then you need to give me at least a potential return on the investment of that extra 'sweat equity'. That is exactly the situation I have now, and it is VERY motivating- it motivates me to work harder, and smarter, and makes me willing to put in longer hours too if I see an upside for MY company as a result. It's also the way to be truly respectful of professional employees, because people with high internal motivation are quite likely to put in that extra effort out of that sense of duty and loyalty even if they're not compensated for it properly. Taking advantage of the better nature of your employees is merely greedy, which is perhaps forgivable in business. Compelling it in the name of "professionalism" is beyond greedy- it's unethical and beneath the dignity of a professional.

Nobody should volunteer their time for a for-profit corporation. Period. Making a sweat equity investment is an entirely different transaction than working 60 hrs per week consistently for 40 hrs worth of pay.

Clearly no one should be expected to work stupid hours on a regular basis but on the other side of the coin we as engineers are well paid and professionals so getting the job done is part of the package. By all means fight unacceptable practices but it is called WORK for a reason.

I see my labour as intrinsically valuable, and certainly no less valuable than the labour of any hourly employee. It's "work", but it's "work for hire", not indentured servitude: you don't own my time merely because you employ me. If you want me to "get the job done" for you and you're concerned about the total cost, then get me to bid fixed price. But if you're hiring me as an employee, don't expect me to put in extra effort and time for zero compensation. I might do it occasionally out of a sense of loyalty or duty, but if it becomes expected then I'm going to want a return on that investment.

 

[ajack1]

I really don’t agree with you on that moltenmetal. As a well-paid professional you should produce your best work in return for a salary, why should you need a bonus or equity in the company for doing the job you are paid for? Why not take it on a stage and demand a bonus for turning up at all or for bothering to do any work whilst at work? Good grief we are professionals and as such should not demand bonuses for just doing our job. Would you expect a doctor or any other professional to say it will cost X but if you want me to put some effort it I expect a bonus?

I totally agree with you regarding working extra hours but even then only outside of what was stated when the job was accepted and terms and conditions agreed, again many top end jobs require you to get the job done, but this should always be agreed when signing the contract to take a job.

Bonuses and equity do have a place and can often make sound business sense especially in young companies where growth and cash flow are a problem, however both can have a downside and can demotivate employees. It is fine giving away equity to an employee but what happens when you expand and need more people on the same level, do you give all the company away or have the majority of employees resenting that others on the same level are treated better than them?

Perhaps unsurprisingly the most balanced views usually come from those who have who have been an employee and an employer or worked their way up through a company and see the whole picture rather than those who view it from just one angle.

 

[HamburgerHelper]

Maybe, his views come from the fact that you don't have to try hard to find tradesman, drafters, and designers who are hourly and for their time make more than many engineers.

 

[DHambley]

Moltenmetal, right on. I like your amateur reference.
Luke, Please don't assume that it's like that in most companies. After performing engineering work for several decades in many companies I've seen quite a few great places to work but about one in 4 are as you described. Some of these have simply gone out of business because they are dysfunctional. As far as working over-time indefinitely without pay, that's just silly. Think about a conversation with other professionals or tradesmen. Ask your carpenter to build a porch for you after hours for free or, ask your doctor to perform surgery on a Saturday for free. Are they professional if they say "yes"?

Darrell Hambley P.E.
SENTEK Engineering, LLC

 

[IRstuff]

"ask your doctor to perform surgery on a Saturday for free. Are they professional if they say "yes""

There are lots of doctors that volunteer their time, pro bono. Los Angeles has an annual weekend event with free medical and dental care supplied by volunteers.

"It's "work", but it's "work for hire""

You are therefore declaring yourself to be no different than an hourly employee. And, if that's your attitude, then you cannot expect your employer to have an attitude toward you beyond treating you as a commodity. If you want more than passing respect, then you have to treat your job with more than passing respect. Now, I'm certainly not going to work completely for free, but I can tell you that I've not been anywhere near the top of a layoff list since being a technician during college.

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[moltenmetal]

[I really don’t agree with you on that moltenmetal. As a well-paid professional you should produce your best work in return for a salary, why should you need a bonus or equity in the company for doing the job you are paid for?

Who says I do anything other than "produce my best work"? Professionalism implies a certain minimum standard of care with respect to any work you do. Doing shoddy work because you feel poorly paid is unprofessional. We're not talking about slacking because you feel you're underpaid- we're talking about refusing to work uncompensated overtime voluntarily or when it is compelled, because the work itself is of intrinsic value.

There's also an important distinction about "getting the job done": it's one thing to work hard to meet your own commitments, and it's quite another when someone else is continually moving the bar in relation to what is expected to "get the job done" as a means to increase their profit on your efforts.

What I am NOT willing to do is to give my work for free to a for-profit corporation, merely because it is expected of me as part of "getting the job done". A critical part of being a professional is learning when to say no, whether that be to issuing incomplete or rushed work, compromising on safety in design, or working for free.

There are lots of doctors that volunteer their time, pro bono. Los Angeles has an annual weekend event with free medical and dental care supplied by volunteers

Lots of engineers volunteer their time too. It's laudable- I encourage everyone to volunteer, and even more importantly, to participate as citizens, in making your part of the world a better place. Check previous posts to previous threads on this topic- I always say that if you want to volunteer, there are plenty of worthy causes that need your help. But you CANNOT equate charitable giving of a professional's time with donating time to a for-profit corporation.

Some assumptions have been made about me that I have to put straight I think. As part owner of the firm I currently work for, I AM an employer. I'm actively involved in recruiting, hiring and mentoring/training engineers as part of my duties. I've also been an employee of private and publicly traded corporations with no equity stake. In fact, my Damascene conversion on this issue occurred when after nearly a year of 70 hour weeks trying to prop up a start-up company I was working for, I was cut down to 4 days per week. I suddenly realized: I was being treated like an employee, even though I was WORKING as if I were a business partner! If we came up with a major discovery, my share of the profit would be nothing more than my salary. So I went from working 70 hours per week, to working 32, for only 10% less pay- a government job-share program picked up the other half of my lost salary. Fortunately it gave me a full day every week to look for another job- but it also gave me time to start living the REST of my life again, which I had forgotten over that year. I stuck it out, out of loyalty to some of my colleagues and because I was a dedicated professional- until another colleague left and they put me back on full weeks. The "human resources" person then asked me, for the very first time, "What can we do to make you happier here?"- because my colleague's departure had made me suddenly more important to the management I guess. I made a list of possible things they could choose from: better pay, overtime, time in lieu, shares, options etc. They did none of it. A month later I had a new job which paid overtime with a base salary over 20% higher.

I'd learned my lesson: workaholism is a disease- an addiction. It's important to put yourself into your work, but it's possible for love of work to be unrequited! Putting too much of yourself into your work makes you into a one dimensional person, which pushes you even further toward work as a means to derive some self-worth. The rest of your life becomes a hollow shell. When you kick the addiction, you realize that you can STILL be a professional and have a life, especially if you hold on to your dignity by refusing to work for free.

Since that day, over twenty years ago, I've never worked a "free" hour again in my life. Any volunteering I've done has been for truly worthy causes. I've had a very successful career and never had trouble finding work. Don't get me wrong- I've worked PLENTY of O/T when it was needed, though I've cut it WAY back from those early days. But every hour of it has been compensated for, either directly, indirectly via time in lieu, or in the form of a share of the profit generated. That share of profit has gone up and down and there have been times when it's been zero- but there have been times when it has been very handsome indeed, and there have been times when I've remained employed despite not having anything profitable to do, something that I'm very grateful for and which was also a very sensible business decision (the year after that was the busiest and one of the most profitable in proportional terms in our history, and I ran the project that made us the lion's share of the money that year). Every cent's worth of equity I have in this company I have bought with my own money, though most of that money aside from a little at the beginning, came ultimately from my share of the profit. I appreciate that we give our staff the option to take their profit sharing in cash or put it back into equity in the company, depending on their needs. I've personally made some of my partners, the founders of this company, very rich indeed- their share of the profit I've generated for them is far higher than my own, but I don't think that's unfair for a moment.

 

[mtu1972]

Moltenmetal - I agree completely. I was salaried in 2 of my jobs and came to the same conclusion's that you did. Early in my career I was hourly, but only paid straight time for overtime. The first salaried position was before laptops, etc., but I was in the office 6 days per week and working out of my briefcase most nights and Sunday's. My wife was miserable.

Next job was also salaried, but was about 20% more pay and only had a 5 mile commute. Still, spent a lot of time at the office. Bonuses did not cover the hours spent, and were eventually (last few years there) were deposited into 401k rather than given out as pay. Two of us put in a lot of time, while the other two structural engineers always had plans for the weekends that precluded coming to work. Work was divvied up based on how much you could get done, so that kept the two of us always "busy".

After being downsized out because of a purchase by a foreign company, my last 3 jobs were hourly. I would not have it any other way.

I was still a Professional - but I no longer had to feel like I was being taken advantage of.

gjc

 

[djs]

I once worked for a company, actually a division of a much larger multinational, which the management was focused on quarterly returns. I was working as a field service engineer at the time. The end result of the management focus on quarterly earnings was machines being shipped that were incomplete and did not work. It was left to the field service department to complete the machine and make it work. After a year of this I quit. several months after I left the division, corporate fired everyone from middle management up.

 

[GMcD]

What MoltenMetal said!! Wish I could bestow a double star. I'm in the MEP consulting industry and it's a death spiral - we propose fixed fees for unknown amounts of work, and the culture is afraid of trying to collect additional services fees for the ubiquitous "scope creep" which happens on all projects (we deal with architects, say no more!) since the Managing Principals fear losing future work by acting like a Professional and collecting fees for service. In our field we commonly finance the developer and architects since an number of "successful developers and architects" are the ones with the worst accounts receivable - 90 to 120 days out. Oh, let's collect on those - oops- the old "don't want to tick off the Client" thing again...Sigh.

Engineers aren't normally trained for any business management, and the class system in this field seems to be one where a good engineer becomes a partner and they are now "management". Many very good technical engineers have no business being managers, and most engineers I know in this field are neither management material, nor are they accountants or lawyers - but funny how many managing partners in my career I've run into that think they know how to do accounting or legal work just because they are a partner now. The MEP and Building Services engineering field have allowed themselves to become doormats and low fees are the only way many of the consultants are able to get more work. More work with less fees means everyone having to work 130% to make the 90% productivity targets and meet the financial numbers. Great business model. (That would be sarcasm).

 

[CELinOttawa]

We have a very simple model, and apply is religiously. We quote only jobs which have fixed and known scopes, and our contract have clear requirements for additional work. We apply them. We also discount 20% for early payment, and this frequently motivates clients to pay early.

We have lost some clients through charging for changes in scope, but have done so without regret. We also have a 100% payment rate within 30 days of billing, nearly 90% within the two week 20% discount period.

We also renumerate staff in exactly the same way as the principles. IE: For fixed price contracts, staff are involved in the pricing and know their bonus before they begin the work. For hourly work, they are paid an additional hourly stipend. We haven't yet found any staff who in any way delay a job or inflate hours, because they are keen to get onto the next job and potentially increase their bonus.

It may not be perfect, and I'm sure lots of you will think it foolish, wasteful, or overly simplistic/idyllic, but we are all happy.

Oh, and for those reading this after seeing the slide rule post from a previous thread: The new intern has not quit, and has become reasonably proficient with a slip stick.

 

[GMcD]

CELinOttawa: Kudos to you and your company - Wish we had more like that in this industry. I'll continue to try to fight the good fight, at least in my own little niche here, I am able to keep repeat clients and relatively decent fees, but I'm just one team in a large organization.

 

[moltenmetal]

GMcD: a lot of people are on the utilization treadmill. They have utilization targets, which comes down to the fact that the real work they do to drag in the next project, or to avoid leaving a mess for the next project to clean up, is not properly respected because it isn't billable. Utilization targets are another way to compel uncompensated overtime.

People selling services by the hour are of course in quite a bind- there's only so much margin between bill-out rates and salary plus payroll burden and overheads, all of which is of course beyond the control of the average employee. We avoid this by bidding fixed price on our work, such that we get to keep the gains resulting from our efficiency. We're fortunate in that the work that a lot of other people do for free as proposals, we manage to get paid for on a reimbursable basis as studies. Mind you, my hourly rate for that reimbursable work is the same, in dollars, as the hourly rate I was billed out at in the last consulting company I worked for 19 years ago, so I wouldn't call our work on studies a real money maker- but it's better than doing it for free.

 

[glass99]

CEL: 20% discount for early payment is a bit generous!

moltenmetal: agreed that utlization targets are a blunt instrument with perverse incentives. Profit sharing is a much better model.