Are you an engineer at all?? 38

[MIStructE_IRE]

I’m not sure about you guys, but lately all I’m doing is risk assessments, reports, meetings, presentations, dealing with public bodies and dealing with nonsense. Its been months since I’ve done any actual engineering!

The job has become so over regulated I feel like engineering Itself is now maybe 25-30% of my job! I’d consider myself a good designer, and this level of admin and red tape has me considering jacking it all in and going to do something else..

How are things in your part of the world?

 

[Tomfh]

I admire your sense of adventure! I'm much more of a wimp when it comes to "Look Ma! No Hands" structures.

 

[MIStructE_IRE]

Very impressive Dik. Are you using the stair slab itself or the perimeter beam system to take the torsion? I’ve never had the opportunity to do one of these! I’d be concerned that if I did, some FE whizkid would show me up on some vibration calc I’ve never even heard of!!

 

[blihpandgeorge]

I agree with IDS earlier, engineering includes the "risk assessments, reports, meetings, presentations, dealing with public bodies" and in many ways this is the part of our value that we dont spend enough time one - explaining to others what we do and why. From this will come better reputation / prestige / salaries etc. No one will pay more for something they dont understand.

 

[MIStructE_IRE]

You’re probably right guys. It is all part of it. I guess I’m just at my most content with a pencil and some graph paper doing the ‘real’ work!

 

[TED7]

I've been in and out. Currently I'm working on safety justifications; almost all of it is explaining why something is safe, because x. Then writing wordy reports to convince the regulator that it is safe. It absolutely requires an "engineer" to comprehend but is in no way "engineering".

 

[1503-44]

Don't get engineering confused with number crunching. It isn't the same today as it was back in the day. I say "Fortunately". Any ole computer can size a beam and a column, stick them together and plant them in concrete. That is not a useful skill for humans to have, never mind engineers, but it's great for computers. It is at most useful knowledge to pick up along the way to becoming a "real engineer", but today that is not engineering. Don't spend any more time with that than you need to learn it. Anybody that can't deal with the proposals, zoning permits, safety reviews and navigating through the tons of reglations will not see any of their computer's beautiful drawings come to life anyway. What clients will pay you for quite nicely today is getting your permits approved on the first pass through the regulators' offices. Clients are not interested in looking at X-ray views of architects' drawings showing the underlying beam and column connections no matter how beautiful they may be. Don't wait until you're 50 to find out.

“What I told you was true ... from a certain point of view.” - Obi-Wan Kenobi, "Return of the Jedi"

 

[dik]

Perimeter beam only... but I'm pretty sure the slab and stairtreads help, too... greatful for that. Ever have a project where you know it will work... but, have a lingering doubt in the background... sorta Kafkaesque. I was absolutely certain... but... maybe something I overlooked?

I remember the huge number of rebar at the top, going back into the concrete topping... 3" conc on T30V deck... F902 firerated system... only beams had fireproofing... I actually provided 3 or 4 methods of typical framing for the mall floor and sent them out to a contractor for pricing.

Dik

 

[KootK]

...and this level of admin and red tape has me considering jacking it all in and going to do something else..

I feel as though we might be cut from the same cloth on this so I'll share what I think I've learned having pondered this for a solid decade now.

1) Task wise, one kinda just likes what they like. Sure, there are folks who like everything and transition seamlessly into management and other higher level responsibilities seamlessly. I'm not one of them though.

2) In the interest of full disclosure, I have a friend that I worked with for a long time at a high end firm (RJC, same as dik) who had finagled a pretty great situation for himself. He toughed it out, climbed to principal, and now basically spends most of his time facilitating the design of project engineers while those guys and gals go to most of the boring meetings. So he's still technical, only hands on for the real interesting problems and, of course, spends some time on big proposals etc. It's a good gig and I'm jealous. Big bucks and fun task composition. Making it happen requires a particular set of circumstance in my opinion though:

a) A high end firm that attracts high end junior staff that are fun and interesting to teach and grow with.

b) A high end firm that lands significant architectural projects, often institutional in nature, that have enough fee in them to be able to support a talented group really exerting themselves intellectually.

c) You gotta be able to convince your superiors, who are mostly business guys, that you're enough of a business guy to promote to principal in the first place. Without this, you'll struggle to exert the power within your organization to be able to create a niche like this for yourself.

I did my management tour of duty at a lesser firm and concluded that wasn't ever going to be fun for me.

3) I've also seriously considered switching careers because of my lack of enthusiasm for the higher level consulting activities. And, frankly, I feel that there's real merit in that given that:

a) Management of most things will tend to be more lucrative than management of consulting engineering.

b) As my accountant brother is fond of saying, "once you're managing anything, does it really matter what your managing as far as you passions go?". Engineering deliverables, investments, widgets...

c) I actually feel that structural engineering work is especially difficult for me to manage precisely because I'm so interested in it. Successful management is mostly about making clients happy, PM'ing to make a profit, and motivating a team. Many of those goals actually run contrary to quality design engineering in my opinion. Were I to manage, I feel that I would be better at managing another kind of product.

4) As a last ditch effort to fight the good fight and make it work doing what I like, I've basically tried to make myself the world's highest paid EIT by starting my own little firm and doing a lot of specialty delegated design work and subcontract for other EOR's who trust me technically. The jury's still out on whether or not it will work but the challenges are many:

a) Income volatility. It only works because I live in Canada and do a lot of USD work.

b) Basically jumping off the traditional career ladder and "not growing" in the eyes of potential, future employers.

c) Wildly variable hours.

d) Now I have to do a a fair bit of my own business administration and manage a couple of employees so it's not like I've shed that 100%.

All that said, doing my own thing is an adventure that I'm glad to be trying my hand at. Life's not super interesting 24/7 and I'm clearly not going to be a famous rock star on an astronaut. Pretty much everybody has the opportunity take a swing at a couple of life's biggest adventures though:

e) Having a family.

f) Entrepreneurship.

So swing for the fences I say. I do acknowledge, of course that it is possible to be an entrepreneur within an existing organization. Once might say that it's actually mandatory to reach the highest echelons.

 

[CivilSigma]

I have been meaning to start a similar discussion.

I am an EIT (Canada), and have been worknig for about a year now. My job is about 80% report writing, site visit, research and then the occasional , but simple member designs.
I work in a small firm (less than 20 people).


Am I too naive in wanting a design job similar to what I did in school? I've always wanted to design and work on big tall structures doing dynamics, statics ...

 

[IRstuff]

You're in a "small" firm, so it's likely that it may never be involved directly in designing tall structures.

TTFN (ta ta for now)
I can do absolutely anything. I'm an expert!

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[KootK]

I've always wanted to design and work on big tall structures doing dynamics, statics ...

To make that happen, you'll need to be pretty strategic. If I had it to do over again, I'd move to a growing urban centre and camp outside of a premier firm doing tall work until I tricked them into accepting me. Speaking to only the markets that I know something about, and surely leaving out a lot of players:

1) Move to Vancouver and work for RJC or Glotman Simpson.

2) Move to Toronto and work for RJC or Entuitive.

3) Move to NY and work for DeSimone, WSP, TT, or pretty much any big player.

4) Move to Chicago and work for TT, MKA, SOM.

5) Move to Seattle and work for MKA.

It's a big sacrifice to make that happen if it didn't just kinda happen naturally, especially with a family in tow. That said, it is what it is.

Statics you should be able to employ anywhere of course.

 

[CivilSigma]

I think that is the plan. I am currently in Ottawa, and there are no major firms or even local firms hiring design engineers.
I would love to work in the USA, but I don't think anyone would sponsor a Canadian in these times.

 

[dik]

I lucked out... the Winnipeg office (since closed) had a new manager... and I met him in a 'strip club' and we somehow started talking engineering... was into masonry at the time and construction of 20 storey (or so) buildings and tall masonry walls... he asked me to come in for an interview... That was the early '70s.


Dik

 

[dhengr]

Dik:
Did you know a guy by the name of Bill Hanuschak (from Winnipeg)? I almost went to work with him in the early 70’s. They had an office down here in the Twin Cities, and wanted someone to manage it and work on their projects around here.

 

[dik]

Knew him well... he was with Crosier Greenberg when I worked there in 1970ish. Did a lot of work down in Minneapolis with him... an interesting anecdote... I used to be able to run a string of dimensions on a drawing adding feet and inches just by looking at them... I was showing Bill how well I did this... and ended up with a different number than was on the drawings... thought I screwed up and ran them again and ended up with the same number as the first time... an urgent phone call was placed... they were in the process of installing caissons based on the drawing dimensions. I was talking to Bill about 6 months back... he was in the process of winding up his firm.

His brother Ben was my Grade 7 Guidance Teacher... first day of class, I walked in and patted him on the head and called him a cute little teacher... but, that's another story. Last I heard, Ben was in the hospital.

Dik

 

[Parosh]

KootK, can you elaborate on this? I'm also an EIT in Canada working for about a year at a small firm in Niagara, trying to broaden my horizons.

 

[KootK]

KootK, can you elaborate on this? I'm also an EIT in Canada working for about a year at a small firm in Niagara, trying to broaden my horizons.

An engineer's career tends to be characterized by a sort of professional inertia. Whatever kind of work you start your career doing, that's often the kind of work that you'll end your career doing. And that's not just a function of one's technical skill set. At the upper levels, the game is very much about reputation and relationships. Ten years in, you'll have a reputation for doing certain kinds of work and relationships with other parties who are also involved in those kinds of work. It's self perpetuating.

The moral of the story is that, if your goal is to be doing a certain kind of work, it would be to your advantage to start doing it fairly early on in your career. The most likely way to accomplish that is to get a job with a firm that will themselves be doing that kind of work in the near future. And who are those firms?

A) Firm's that already have a reputation for doing that kind of work in the past and;

B) Firm's who operate in markets where that kind of work is likely to be taking place in the near future.

If you want a particular thing to happen in your career, or your life for that matter, you'll probably have to take proactive steps to align yourself with those goals. If your thing is skyscrapers, you'll want to move to a big city and work for a firm that does skyscrapers.

 

[WARose]

I do it....although on my own now. Interestingly enough though (now that you mention it), one of the things that drove me away from the larger firms is the fact I was doing a lot of people's job for them. I.e. designers who couldn't design, estimators who couldn't estimate, schedulers who couldn't schedule, and so on.

At least now I know it's going to be all on me.

 

[MIStructE_IRE]

I agree Koot. That said, the grass is always greener... Guys I know in small firms want to design the big stuff... Guys designing the same big building 6 years later would kill for a chance to design some small bespoke stuff!

 

[r13]

In large firms, you tend to be trained as a specialist on something, project management included, with good guidance and plenty of resources. Mobility is there, but the move is slow, as competition is high. In small firms, you tend to carry everything start out from the beginning, with minimal guidance and limited resources, and the move from technical only towards doing everything can be rapid, as you are probably the only person who can handle the heat/load. The above said are not always true, but are something to think about when you planning your career path, and determine which role you want to be. I think the correct mix that fitting your interests and personality is the key to success.