Are You An Engineer If You Don't Pass The P.E.? 31

[drawoh]

"Illinois case worries engineering organizations."

Here is the article in Design News. Is this safe to post, or has the subject been flogged to death?

JHG

 

[HgTX]

The question of only PEs (and those under the industrial exemption) being allowed to call themselves engineers has been flogged to death.

If Siegal is not recognized as an engineer, states could force thousands of manufacturing firms to remove the term "engineering" from their company names and might even tell hundreds of thousands of engineering graduates to remove "engineer" from their business cards.

No sh!t, Sherlock. That's already the law in many if not most states. This is NOTHING new.

What may not have been beaten to death is the question of whether independent consultants doing exactly what they used to do under the industrial exemption need to get licensed just because now they're a third party instead of directly employed by the people they're providing that service to. I've seen some discussion here but not as much as the other question.

Whether or not that *should* be the way things are, though, I don't see it as such a hardship. Part of what someone working under the industrial exemption needs to do in order to prepare for becoming an independent consultant, along with buying their own library and software, is get the license. Parallel case: a real estate agent wanting to go out on their own needs to get a broker's license.

Hg

Eng-Tips policies: faq731-376

 

[IRstuff]

see:

http://ilga.gov/legislation/ilcs/il...rofessional+Engineering+Practice+Act+of+1989.

Interesting that this is Blagojevich's state.

TTFN

FAQ731-376

 

[zdas04]

HgTX,
That is a good point about doing the same job you were doing under an industrial exemption. I don't need a PE to evaluate a gathering system or to size a compressor--these tasks are done by non-engineers all the time so doing them is not "holding myself out to the public to be an engineer".

To call my business "MuleShoe Engineering" I have to have a PE in this state even if I never do anything that requires a stamp. Doesn't make much sense, but that is the law. I could call my business "MuleShoe Energy" and do almost all the things that I do today (with a couple of notable exceptions) without a PE.

The PE lets me put "Engineer" on my business card and "Engineering" on my company name. Determining the value of that is a difficult exercise that anyone starting a consultancy should think really hard about.

David

 

[IRstuff]

Consultancy can be a nebulous area. In California, the industrial exemption extends to consultants of exempt companies. Consultants who offer their services to the general public, on the other hand...

TTFN

FAQ731-376

 

[vc66]

It's b*llshit. If I do mechanical design work for a company as a consultant that's in an exempt area, I don't need to be a PE. If I'm the CEO of my company, and I do mechanical design in an exempt industry--it's OK, but if I am the Chief Engineer of my company, and I do mechanical engineering in an exempt industry--it's not OK.

If it require's a stamp, then you should need to be a PE. If it doesn't then you shouldn't need to be a PE. Maybe that means broadening the range of things that require a stamp, I don't know. But this is such a namby pamby thing to be arguing about.

There are people dying all over this world for naught, and people in this country are still arguing over the use of words. That's a damn shame.

V

 

[Ron]

Let's look at this from a different angle.
Not all "engineering" curricula are the same. The Accreditation Board for Engineering and Technology (ABET) prescribes a minimum curriculum for engineering graduates and most states require that, before licensing, the candidate must have graduated from an ABET accredited program. That sets a baseline for the academic side.

The term "engineer", like it or not, believe it or not, connotes someone who is perceived to be a bit smarter than the average bear. This is what the "public" believes.

The title "Engineer" is intended to convey that this person is someone who has received a rather difficult education and has proved himself/herself to be competent to offer the benefit of the education and experience to the public for the public good. The proof of this competence, in the licensed engineer realm, is the Professional Engineering lioense; the P.E.

Without licensing there is no common proof that the engineers are "apples and apples" by comparison. Further, in the event of a failure, the non-licensed engineer may be sued for damages in civil court and if he loses he loses money. If a licensed engineer designs a failure, he can be sued civilly and he can lose his ability to practice engineering by a loss of his license. Which one has more to loose and which do you think would be more prudent in his design? Please note that prudent doesn't necessarily equate to conservative....there's still plenty of risk and innovation in the ranks of licensed engineers.

This question has been debated for years and will continue to be. I am a firm believer in the licensing process and believe that those who complain about licensing should strive to meet the qualifications and become so. What could it hurt? Why not keep the level of public confidence in engineering at a high level and promote that through the licensing process?

 

[IRstuff]

Why is that BS? There are lots of stuff that you can do in the privacy of your own home that would be illegal in public.

TTFN

FAQ731-376

 

[Ron]

IRstuff...well sure...most states don't limit your "engineering" of your own stuff either, but they limit it if you offer it to the public.

 

[vc66]

I just realized I starred the bull, but not the bad part... whoops.

I'm talking in terms of mechanical engineering of consumer devices. If I want to call my company ABC Vacuum Engineering Company, and make vacuums... what's the problem?

I would never hold out myself to be a PE, unless I was, but I can't understand what the problem is, pertaining to the article in question.

V

 

[TheTick]

A man with 55 years experience ought to be able to breeze through the PE exam. He also ought to be familiar with the law.

If I walk into a building with a sign that says "clinic", I expect to find persons calling themselves "doctor" to be licensed.

 

[IRstuff]

The difference is that the subject was indeed offering engineering services and promoting himself as an engineer, just not a PE. However, in California, there's no distinction; your only haven would be to be employed in an exempt capacity, which this guy wasn't.

BTW, is the horse dead yet, or is it simply a zombie?

TTFN

FAQ731-376

 

[SomptingGuy]

I hear of the PE exam all the time here. What's a typical question? Is it higher or lower than those I sat through at university? Or does it contain more "experience" questions?

- Steve

 

[Ron]

TheTick...well said....better and more succinct than the rest of us

 

[JAE]

Yes its been flogged to death.

But just keep in mind the complaint by the state is the guy's [blue]use of the term ENGINEER[/blue]...not his activities over 55 years inventing stuff.

Requiring the guy to not use the term Engineer won't affect his livelihood....UNLESS....he's indeed hanging out a shingle advertising himself as an engineer and he feels it would limit his "credibility".

With all his accomplishments, I guess I don't see how he needs to use the term.

 

[Ron]

JAE
You and The Tick laid it out very clearly...and yes, it has been flogged to death and until our state boards start enforcing the laws that have been in place for years, it will continue to be an issue of others usurping the title.

 

[JLSeagull]

If you're gonna play in Texas you gotta have a Fiddler in the Band. If you'r gonna call yourself an engineer in Texas you better be a licensed registered professional engineer in Texas. Texas went nuts about registration in 1992. I passed the exam in 1994 and now contribute a few hundred bucks to the Texas general fund each year. Enforecement? See

http://www.tbpe.state.tx.us/disciplinary.htm

BTW,
The HgTX quotation mentioned Siegal not Seagull. ;-)

 

[oldfieldguy]

JLSeagull--

Texas went nuts about licensing just about everything in the last decade or so but we in Louisiana have one up on them. In this fine state you have to be licensed to be a florist. You know? Flowers and ....?

old field guy

 

[IRstuff]

Baby's Breath...


Sure, wouldn't want some unlicensed hack selling you poison ivy instead of Baby's Breath, now would we?

TTFN

FAQ731-376

 

[ewh]

"The ambassador and the general were briefing me on the - the vast majority of Iraqis want to live in a peaceful, free world. And we will find these people and we will bring them to justice." - [small]George Bush, Washington DC, 27 October, 2003[/small]