Are you the engineer and the drafter? 3

[upjengnr04]

For those of you who work as a one man team or for very small firms (in particular structural guys/gals), do you perform CAD drafting for your work or do you sub that out? Or maybe you don't use CAD at all?

Just curious as to your approach. I have previously worked for a large firm and had dedicated drafters for our projects. There were not many opportunities to learn CAD as it relates to project documents so there was a lot of "on your own" learning that had to be done if you wanted to learn.

Thanks.

 

[JohnRBaker]

Speaking from a position of 'ignorance', at least with respect to the engineering of what I assume are architectural 'structures' (although some of the machines I've worked on were as big as a small house), I assume that when someone like JedClampett says CAD, you're taking almost strictly about the production of Drawings, either as part a response to a RFQ (Request For Quotation) or for fabricating the parts that are going to a job site as well as the 'erection' drawings for the actual job site. Am I correct? If so, I can understand how there might confusion when asking a mixed audience a question like was posed by the OP. In the 'discrete manufacturing' industry, as I've already allude in an earlier post, if anyone even proposed using a change in the "CAD platform" as an opportunity to keep the Engineers from doing their own CAD work, there would have been a mutiny, at least in all the organizations that I'm familiar with. It amazing how this almost ubiquitous tool, CAD, has evolved along such different lines. And speaking of 'Electrical Engineers', or to be more specific 'Electronic Engineers', from the experiences that I've had with them (and being that I started Engineering school as a EE), it would be nearly impossible for them to do their jobs without the benefit of CAD systems designed for their specific use, since for them, the CAD models are their 'work output', and in many respects, this fast becoming the case in the 'discrete manufacturing' world as well with the advent of integrated CAE and CAM as well as other applications such as visualization and rendering.

Anyway, I'm glad I'm where CAD is considered an 'Engineering' tool and not just a means of producing 'paper', not that our industry never experienced a 'phase' like that, just that it started to end about 25 years ago with the introduction of more powerful computers and advanced software tools which made the development and usage of interactive 3D solid modeling both practical and efficient.

John R. Baker, P.E.
Product 'Evangelist'
Product Engineering Software
Siemens PLM Software Inc.
Industry Sector
Cypress, CA
Siemens PLM:
UG/NX Museum:

To an Engineer, the glass is twice as big as it needs to be.

 

[imcjoek]

How do you 'engineer' without drawing things?

From my mechanical point of view...
General tasks involve:
1) Sizing things. Gearboxes. Motors. Structural elements.
Yeah, you do the "sizing" of things like gear-ratios and horsepower requirements on a napkin or whatever, but it still has to fit into the overall design. How do you know what the overall design looks like without poking around the assembly drawings?
2) Fitting bits together / making sure they don't try to occupy the same place in space+time. See item #1.

Even when it's time to make the manufacturing drawings, that still implies things like tolerances and GD&T. How would a dedicated drafter have a clue what is required here? He won't know the "intent" of the parts.

 

[JohnRBaker]

My point exactly imcjoek.

John R. Baker, P.E.
Product 'Evangelist'
Product Engineering Software
Siemens PLM Software Inc.
Industry Sector
Cypress, CA
Siemens PLM:
UG/NX Museum:

To an Engineer, the glass is twice as big as it needs to be.

 

[imcjoek]

In all fairness, I suspect the structural world is a different... uh...world.
I'd suspect the heat-transfer and thermodynamics types probably spend more time on calculations as well.

But these are just theories to me. I don't work there, so I can't say for sure.

That might make an interesting thread in itself. What is a "typical" day for a variety of engineers? What do they actually *do*? The answers would probably be all over the map.

 

[GregLocock]

Our experienced CAD guys do define the GDT strategies, and do understand the manufacturing. Many of them started as toolroom apprentices. I am very happy to let them do the CAD, and make a very significant contribution to the final design.

Cheers

Greg Locock


New here? Try reading these, they might help FAQ731-376

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[drawoh]

Our experienced CAD guys do define the GDT strategies, and do understand the manufacturing. Many of them started as toolroom apprentices. I am very happy to let them do the CAD, and make a very significant contribution to the final design.

As noted by imcjoek, there probably is a big difference between structural engineering and design of machinery. I work in optics. My primary design problem usually is fitting all the stuff into the space available. I am very good at 3D[ ]sketches, but in my world, the skill rarely has proved useful. I go for my scale drafting tool, be it a drafting board, 2D[ ]CAD or 3D[ ]CAD.

I prefer to do my own fabrication drawings. I understand how each part has to work. I know what tolerances have to be assigned. I am fast. It is claimed elsewhere on Eng-Tips that fabrication drawings mostly are crap. Much of this may be a disconnect between the designer and drafter.

--
JHG

 

[AELLC]

"It is claimed elsewhere on Eng-Tips that fabrication drawings mostly are crap. Much of this may be a disconnect between the designer and drafter."


I heard that for eternity regarding struct. shops dwgs. The rebar, steel stair fab,, on and on.

It was only a humorous reference to the poor "cosmetic" appearance of the dwgs. For the most part, the shop dwgs had very few errors, and were comically referred to as "slop drawings". I wouldn't take it personally.

 

[kylesito]

Worked in company's where I was prohibited from drafting and now work in one that has no drafting. With the drafters, I ended up re-drafting many of my own projects when I tried to change and note only to have found it had been exploded to single line text or single characters. Similar results when I put a note on my markup to draw something and then (after waiting days for the markup to get done) found that my note itself that was intended for the drafter made it onto the drawing itself.

My new company has shunned drafting in favor of BIM (Revit). Engineers now produce the drawings but those drawings are generated almost entirely from coordinating between our analysis software. I'm sure others will disagree, but this is a MUCH more efficient way of doing jobs. All I know is 1) I don't suffer from headaches at end of jobs related purely to "fixing drafting", 2) many of our projects are profitable at this new company and it was 50/50 at the last one when all the hours were added up.


PE, SE
Eastern United States

"If a builder builds a house for someone, and does not construct it properly, and the house which he built falls in and kills its owner, then that builder shall be put to death!"
~Code of Hammurabi

 

[AELLC]

kyle,

I had bad experiences also when I was an employee and I was at the mercy of incompetent drafting technicians.

I guess I look at the this in the opposite way now because I am only a one man shop and the clients I work for do the structural drafting themselves, from my redlines. They are very good, and there are few headaches (although I have dropped 2 clients because they were incompetent).

 

[beej67]

Drafting involves making so many mouse and k/b operations for every friggin line, and requires memorizing so many commands and knowledge about how best to layer objects, etc (so you really can't draft efficiently unless you do it full time)....it makes zero sense for engrs to draft.

This may be true in structural, but my experience in site engineering is that it's much more cost effective to have engineers that do know how to draft, since it takes just as much time for them to redline plans as it would for them to fix the dang plans and be done with it. Most good site shops have a blend of PEs who can draft and EITs who are good draftsmen learning to design as they work.

Unfortunately, drafting is being less and less emphasized by ABET programs, and vocational programs are being dropped in high schools because politicians are full of crap and pushing everyone into college preparatory programs that don't prepare for actual work.

I was fortunate enough to begin learning AutoCAD when I was in junior high, and to have intern jobs at it in high school, and that has served me very well in my professional career. Kids these days eyes glass over when you start talking about pen plotters and "Paper Space."



Hydrology, Drainage Analysis, Flood Studies, and Complex Stormwater Litigation for Atlanta and the South East -

http://www.campbellcivil.com

 

[kipfoot]

I have a one-person structural office and I do my own drafting. There have been a few times over the years when my workload demanded that I get outside help, but generally it works for me to do it myself.

Having a drafter would help doing general layout and laying in an architect's background drawings. With others' drawings, there's sometimes a lot of time necessary to make their drawings work.

On the other hand, the precision of CAD helps me in detailing. I use CAD to draw elevations to scale and establish top of steel on tricky geometries. I am also able to turn things around for my clients quickly.

 

[AELLC]

I still don't understand how you get quick turn-around. I perceive the actual engineering calculations to be very quick, assuming you have good computer methods to begin with.

But ACAD seems to me as being a long, tedious process, even for experienced people.

I guess I am expecting results very quickly, and ACAD frustrates me.

 

[beej67]

I can't speak for kipfoot, but I think the fields of structural engineering and site engineering are apples and oranges when it comes to drafting. In site engineering, or related disciplines such as transportation or site hydrology, all your calculations are based on information drawn from the design, and any design changes from your calculations have to be drawn in the plan. The process is iterative, and the plans and models are linked in important ways. Passing that back and forth from an engineer to a drafter costs you more time in cross-talk than it takes to just draw the dang thing yourself.

Hydrology, Drainage Analysis, Flood Studies, and Complex Stormwater Litigation for Atlanta and the South East -

http://www.campbellcivil.com

 

[AELLC]

beej67 - brilliant

 

[CELinOttawa]

Structural Engineer in a three-man home office run shop. We draft our own (by hand). Clients are welcome to have comnputer drafted, or we can oiutsource for a fee. We'll redline twice without added fees; After that it is a case of "the city will accept our originals, so working errors into our details which we must then work to have removed cannot be at our cost."

We are very competitive in our pricing and are not looking for work, so if clients don't like it, the feeling is quickly mutual and the problem goes away.

 

[AELLC]

Brings back fond memories.

Scum-X

Vinyl erasers.

Mechanical lead holders

Ducks, etc.

 

[berkshire]

Brings back memories of being told to keep sleeves rolled down or wear protectors, to stop sweaty marks staining the drawing. then using scum X to remove sweaty stains.
B.E.

You are judged not by what you know, but by what you can do.

 

[AELLC]

Drawing with ink on mylar (over a 9H lead guide line) - to accuracy of 1/50" (requires 20/20)

Lab-calibrated metal straight-edges and scales.

Copper stylus on scribe-coat, lying prone on the drafting tables all lined up - oh joy.

 

[AELLC]

We had these, but of course never touched them. They were actually U.S. Navy, WW2 vintage.

http://www.ebay.com/itm/Vintage-K-E...131003132420&rk=4&rkt=6&sd=251480579587&rt=nc

 

[berkshire]

AELLC (Structural)

Copper stylus on scribe-coat, lying prone on the drafting tables all lined up - oh joy.

That sounds more like Lofting than drafting.
B.E.

You are judged not by what you know, but by what you can do.