Artic Master RMS- 5

[ClydeMule]

Has anyone seen or heard about this thing called an Artic master RMS. It used to be called a Talon RMS.

The website

http://www.articmaster.com

makes some pretty impressive claims about what it can do. It is a vessel installed in the same place you would put a receiever in an air cooled system. It makes some kind of vortex, which they claim:


*Reduces Head pressure
*Reduces Energy Costs
*A whole bunch of other great things.

While I am skeptical of the claims, I am not going to debunk the thing immediatley, because they have some testimonials and an Plant Engineering award (albeit unverified). My guess is that the claims are true, kind of, but how they explain how it works is wrong. I equate it with a liquid/suction heat exchanger. People think these magically give you more capacity. They do only if you have flash gas in the liquid line ahead of the TEV, which is common.

The only thing close to a technical explanation is a line which talks about how the vortex creates turblent refrigeration flow which helps cool the oil on the surface of the vessel. THis may be true, but how does that save you 20%?

I also have a cost savings spreadsheet from them which is amateur at best.

Thanks,

Clyde

 

[ClydeMule]

The problem I ma still having is that the reasons for it working don't seem to make sense. I think Prof. Sporlan went into turbulent and laminar heat transfer pretty well, so I don't need to do that again, but I totally disagree with statement #3, about the receiver. Receivers do not add system capacity or efficieny. In fact they can remove your subcooling.

And I thought you ran vapor in a DX coil anyway.

It kind of seems like the myth about liquid/suction heat exchangers. They increase system capacity, only if the prbolems the heat exchangers solves are present beofre the HXR is installed. BTW, I use liquid/suction HXR's in almost all of my equipment.

In a perfectly running system the ArticMaster won't do anything. If the system is all jacked up, maybe it helps out.

Thanks to jthiede for your input on this, even though I disagree.


Clyde

 

[GuruRu]

I can email the raw data from KWH loggers, before and after an articmaster installation to anyone that would be intererested in it. I am not an articmaster rep, but I work for an energy services company that installs them. In many of our contracts, we would lose money from any equipment that didnt return within 3 years. So we make sure everything is working properly.

 

[ClydeMule]

GuruRU,

Thanks for the offer.

jeffandsheri@cox.net

I am getting one of those things in a couple of weeks.
Can't wait to mess with it.

 

[PacificSteve]

I would like to take a look at the kWH data, as well as a description of the changes made and equipment effected.

Thanks steveolsen@hawaii.rr.com

PacificSteve

 

[ProfSporlan]

Regarding point #3 postulated by jpthiede and questioned by ClydeMule, does adding a receiver to a system increase condenser and/or system capacity? One could make a safe assumption that it could increase condenser capacity, particularly if the system has a marginal condenser to begin with. If a system operates without a receiver, invariably some amount of subcooling exists leaving the condenser, which means refrigerant liquid is backed up in the condenser, and there exists less condenser surface for condensing. But doesn’t increased subcooling mean increased refrigerant net refrigerating effect? Yes, but at the expense of operating at a higher condenser TD, and a higher compressor pressure ratio. This could be a particular problem for low temp systems.

I would think adding a receiver to a low temp system with a marginal condenser would produce savings, while adding a receiver to a medium temp system with an adequate condenser would be wasted effort.

(Note my above diatribe disregards issues that require a system to have a receiver such as condenser fan or flooded head pressure controls)

The problem with analyzing the effectiveness of an energy savings device applied to a refrigeration system is one has to eliminate all the other variables. Reduced KWH readings really don’t tell you anything when you’re adding a receiver to a system where one had not existed, the refrigerant charge is being adjusted, the TEV is being set correctly, condenser coil cleaned, air flows corrected, etc, etc, etc.

Now two brand new units identical in every which way except for the addition of the energy saving device… now there’s a truer comparison.

 

[cjw81]

attention to; Prof Sporlan
Quite an interesting thread on the ArticMaster. In one of your "daitribes" you referred to the Reynolds number, and laminar flow. Coule you give an explanation of these properties and numbers along with desirability/undesireability.
Following your threads along with Clydemule's. Great stuff, thanks for taking the time to educate the rest of us.

 

[ProfSporlan]

Reynold’s number is a ratio of inertial flow forces to viscous forces within the fluid. Among other things, it is an indicator if the fluid flow is laminar or turbulent. A Reynold’s number of 2000 or less indicates laminar flow. Fluid particles in laminar flow move in straight lines. A Reynold’s number above 4000 indicates turbulent flow that is characterized by random movements of fluid particles. In between these values is a transition region, but one can expect flow to be turbulent in this region.

The ArticMaster literature implies that liquid line refrigerant flow for a typical a/c or refrigeration system is laminar. A Reynold’s number calculation applied to recommended refrigerant liquid line sizes shows that this is not the case.

 

[cjw81]

ProfSporlan,
Thanks for taking the time to reply to my query .

cjw81

 

[ClydeMule]

Senor Prof,

I guess my whole issue with concept of increase heat transfer to the "vortex" induced in the liquid line is not a matter of what flow regime we are in, but the overall heat transfer coefficient.

We can jack up the reynolds # to a bijillion, but when you have a liquid line with 105 liquid (fully vortexed and turbulent) in 90F still air becuase the liqiud line is run inside a wall, through a drop ceiling, then passing through some batten insulation, all the while zip tied or other wise mickey-moused to the suction line fully insualted with 3/4" Aramflex. Because of the zip ties or electrical tape, most of the 3/8" line is embedded in insulation.

In the above scenario, the overall heat transfer is something like 3. Maybe 3.2. Regardless of how turbulent the liquid may be, we still have a lousy heat transfer coefficient outside the tube.

I guess that is why God gave us subcoolers (Gen 1:46-47).

I think you hit it on the head, take two BRAND NEW machines installed with EXAXCT same condions (tough to do in the field) and then make a comparison.

Adios.

 

[jpthiede]

Some time and thought have gone by and I want to say that I find everyone's input very "educational". Thank you.

A problem with applying the vortex theory in and of itself is that this occurs before the expansion device. It cannot travel through the expansion device into the evap. coil. As ClydeMule said, what kind of heat transfer are we getting between the ArticMaster and the expansion valve? Virtually none without heat-sinks and moving air.

This has force me personally to look at even further options than the above. What about Pressure-Temperature-and Velocity relationships? What we do pretty much know is that we get a cooler evap. coil temperature and less amp draw on the compressor. This would indicate that we have lower pressures, which we do.

Theory:
A molecule in a vortex has increased velocity. This increased velocity has to result in either a lower pressure and/or a lower temperature. This would mean that the refrigerant enters the expansion valve with a combination of lower temperature and/or lower pressure.

An expansion valve works by lowering pressure even further, which results in lower refrigerant temperatures. If the vortex is causing lower pressures/temperatures to begin with, this could be the reason for lower coil temperatures.

This increased velocity and lower pressures would also change the compression ratio of the system, thereby lowering amperage draw.

I know this is not what the manufacturer suggests, nor does the patent for that matter. Does this make more sense and/or lead to any further clarification?

The problem here is that I know that it works, I've seen it work in real world application and so have others. What is wrong with this picture is that the basis for it working is still unsure.

The result is exactly as stated elswhere (I just don't remember where but I think that it was ClydeMule, please forgive the paraphrasing) that "The ArticMaster may work but the manufacturer doesn't have the fogiest idea why. This means that when it doesn't work right, they won't know how to fix it and they will just blame it on the installation."

You do not know how true this is and how many times I have used this quote in the last couple of months. They will claim that "It works every time that it is installed properly!". Then ask them why I have paid their techs and my, according to them, best installers out there to install on applications that it did not perform as promissed and instead of giving me a definitive answer, they act like a bunch of shade-tree mechanics and are taking the "parts changer" attitude until I end up with a brand new system.

This is my motivation for figuring this thing out, along with the fact that I hate not knowing. If I as a rep see this, then what does my customer think when I don't have an answer. As I inferred, this is only on a couple of installations but this is enough for me to say that I won't sell any more of them until I understand how to "fix it".

Thank you all for your incredible input!!!

-J. Thiede
ArticMaster Rep (on pause)

 

[ClydeMule]

J,

I am glad you see that we are not attacking your product, just trying to figure it out. It is hard to find people who don't get defensive when questioning the product.

As an engineer of a packaged product, I am always bombarded with cut sheets on the next whiz bang energy saver. They all have something about ASHRAE 90.1 stamped on them. It gets kind of hard to cut through the BS.

As a salesman of the same equipment, I am on the other side and am trying to justify how great my machine is and how it will save the customer money. I feel that I have been successful mostly because I know my product in and out, and when necessary can delve into the technical nitty gritty. Though sometimes I go overboard and the customer's eyes glaze over.

I have to hold my vendors to the same standards of technical competency that I am held to. Just kind of stubborn that way.

Good luck with Articmaster.

Clyde

 

[ProfSporlan]

Theory:
A molecule in a vortex has increased velocity. This increased velocity has to result in either a lower pressure and/or a lower temperature. This would mean that the refrigerant enters the expansion valve with a combination of lower temperature and/or lower pressure.

jpthiede, you might find the subject of the Hilsch vortex tube of interest. A reasonably concise explanation can be found at:

http://www.visi.com/~darus/hilsch/

Yes, a vortex can be used to create a refrigerating effect. But I think you need vapor flow and extremely high velocities.

 

[AbbyNormal]

Went to a seminar put on by an "Energy Expert", and one thing he was pitching was the talon.

He was claiming a 20% reduction in power consumption. I watched the animated presentation and after leaving the vortex chamber, the refrigerant was full of bubbles as it exitied through the liquid line.

I concluded 20% power reduction, due to 20% capacity reduction.

The same seminar also pitched magnets that you added to your carbuerator to get inproved gas mileage.

Seemed all snake oil to me.

 

[jpthiede]

It sure is scientific to make conclusions about a product that you know nothing about. How can you say that you conclude that there is a reduction in capacity when we regularly see a 3-6 degree INCREASE in split temperatures, less run time, AND less amperage draw.

I would also like to know who presented a talon to you as the talon was an older product bought out by the current manufacturer. It is now ONLY sold under the name ArticMaster. The talon had problems with manufacturing welds. The patent rights were bought by the current manufacturer and an effort was made to replace talons that had already been installed with new product.

I have also noticed that people like throwing around the term "snake-oil" every time that they don't have the adequate knowledge or information to understand something.

I guess that the thoery that Earth is round not flat would have fallen into the category of "snake-oil" also...

Constructive input would include reading what has already been posted here and giving an educated reason as to why you disagree.

Thanks,
-J. Thiede
ArticMaster Rep (still on pause)

 

[jbarba]

I suggest a variety of products and services to reduce energy demand. In addition to about 10 other technologies, Artic Master is one I recommend to my clients because it works. As a chemical engineer my curiosity needs to be controlled by business sense. These units payout in less than 3 years - some times 18 months depending on run time, electric rates, humidity, temperature, etc etc.

I understand that TXU routinely offers this technology when trying to reduce power consumptiuon in Texas. Never really checked that out but no reason to challenge.

I love this tread but some of you skeptics need to try it - you might like it.

 

[AbbyNormal]

The Talon presentation video had bubbles in the liquid line exiting the device which to me suggests a reduced mass flow rate. I would say a reduced mass flow rate would mean reduced capacity.

The presentation also indicated various power utilities endorsing the product. I tried to research the endorsement on the internet by visiting web sites of the utilities mentioned, but was unsuccesful in verifying the claimed endorsement.

 

[lGerryl]

I have listened and just have to put my two cents in. I work for an air conditioning manufacturer. We spend a lot of time and money trying to make our systems more efficient.
Examination of a standard Pressure enthaply diagram or a temperature Entropy diagram and a component balance graph, will show where heat energy is being absorbed and released from a refrigeration system.
No known working device has yet to violate the laws of thermodynamics that we engineers hold so dear. I have tested several refrigeration energy saving devices, and have not found a valid claim yet that could not be explained using standard engineering analysis.

1) It has been claimed that this device makes the evaporator temperature lower. In an existing system a lower evaporator temerature can be caused by;
a) reduction in air flow or fouling of the heat transfer surface either internally or externally
b) less refrigerant in the evaporator (metering device underfeeding because of entering bubbles)
c) an increase in compressor pumping capacity
d) any combination of the above

2) It has been claimed that this device reduces the energy required to operate the compressor. For an existing system a reciprocating compressor will require less power if,
a) the saturated discharge pressure is reduced
b) the saturated suction pressure is reduced (specific power increases, but mass flow decreases,and overall power decreases)
c) the suction superheat is reduced
d) improvements in compressor design or efficiency
d) any combination of the above

3) Net refrigeration effect can be increased by aproximately 6% for every 10°F reduction in liquid temperature entering the TX valve. (R-22 air conditioning)

Analysis
Since this device does not increase the efficiency of the evaporator, (otherwise the SST would increase not decrease) we must conclude that it increases the efficiency of the compressor or the condenser. If it increases the pumping capacity of the compressor, it would decrease the evap temp (claimed) but that would increase power as well (not claimed) The only way that the power could be reduced and the pumping capacity increased is to lower the head pressure.
To lower the head pressure the condenser efficiency would have to be increased (Q=UA delta T)
Due to the location of the device in the system, it is possible for this thing to work, if it could reduce the refigerant volume in the condenser, thus increasing the EFFECTIVE condensing area in the tubes, and lowering the head pressure. OR if it could increase the heat transfer of the liquid line and get more subcooling.

Howerever, I doubt that the condenser effective area can be increased by a device located after the condensate header.
AND
Subcooling is EASILY MEASURED with ANY quality temperature meter, and yet they do not claim this is how it works. (as this would be easily verified).

Therefore...

If the liquid entering the metering device is not colder, or the head pressure is not lower.
I have to cry "snake oil".

HOWEVER.... if they need land to set up manufacturing facilities, I have some in Florida that would be perfect. Trust me.

<grin>

Thats the way I see it.
Gerry

 

[PacificSteve]

I worked with a guy who got 30% fuel savings when applying a boiler controller (basically increased the historisis aka deadband).

The reason he really achieved 30% savings is that he simultaneously fixed other system problems which were ignored or not understood by the maintenance staff. A very valuable skill indeed, however, the device was generating a small savings, and the human skill was responsible for the lions share of the savings.

Any thoughts on whether this applies here where we have so many true believers and so many convinced it is another snake oil black box.

PacificSteve

 

[jpthiede]

Here are some sample before/after readings taken for the ArticMaster:

Evap. Temp (In/Out), Cond. Temp (In/Out), Avg RLA, Amb. Temp, Head Pressure, Suct. Pressure, Superheat...in this order before and after.

Sample # 1

71.0 - 77.0, 56.0 - 57.0, 92.0 - 95.0, 112.0 - 125.0, 10.4 - 10.0, 92.0 - 95.0, 290.0 - 265.0, 75.0 - 78.0, 13.0 - 17.0

Sample # 2

68.0 - 69.7, 48.0 - 48.4, 69.0 - 94.3, 80.0 - 106.9, 14.5 - 15.1, 69.0 - 94.3, 165.0 - 200.0, 59.0 - 59.0, 13.0 - 7.0, & condesate was 0 oz / 15 min off of the coil before and 22 oz / 15 min back

I have several others if interested.

-J. Thiede

 

[jbarba]

JThiede

Where are you located? I have an alliance with Power Sales who is a licensed office of IMC. IMC, Tennessee, is a distributor and/or provider of Artic Master and other power reduction and asset protection technologies. They do not install. I need a contact to install in NJ. My business is engineeting and capital project consulting. There is strong recent interest in Artic Master.

More examples of results would be appreciated. Historical information, i.e., results after a year or so would also be of inmterest.

I am not promoting or selling but rather trying to understand the actual benefits rather than theoretical benefits.

Joe Barba
973-226-4935