ATF in manual gearbox? 1

[PEW]

One of the two helicopters I fly for a living (both are Sikorsky S-76s) uses Mobil 254 (primarily a turbine engine oil) in the main, intermediate and tail rotor gearboxes.

The other heli uses ATF in the gearboxes, (Mobil 254 again in the engines). Both oils have similar viscosities judging by how they pour when we top up.

A while back a colleague's car needed a new driveshaft CV joint and he was helped out by a friendly helicopter engineer. After completing the work, they put Mobil 254 in the gearbox as it was "freely available". It is still going strong as far as I know.

I hav almost finished rebuilding the tranmission of my little trials car, which has just an 850cc engine. Power losses through transmission drag are a significant percentage of the total engine power available (only about 50 bhp at the flywheel estimated), especially as I just have changed to a small van axle for extra strength.

All this has got me thinking about suitability of oil types, viscosities, etc.

It makes sense to use as light an oil as possible in the manual gearbox and (hypoid) rear axle. However, the manufacturers' recommendations are 80w in the gearbox and 90w in the rear axle. I have previously been using a semi-synthetic 75/90w.

Could I use ATF without compromising longevity or reliability? (Mobil 254 is actually extremely expensive so I won't be using that).

For years I thought that ATF was only meant to be used in automatic boxes, but in view of the helicopter using it, is this not so critical?

BTW, I am aware of the requirement for a sulphur additive or similar to reduce wear due to the higher contact loads and "sliding" motion in a hypoid axle rather than in a straight cut gear set.

 

[idano]

here is a good example of what I was trying to point out in my post above....the ZF 6 speed.

Besides contacting ZF directly...(708)634-3500 you can contact Mike Weinberg at Rockland Standard gear Inc in Sloatsberg, NY...or Callaway in Connecticut. These people will tell you that you must use GM 1052931 or Castrol RS10w60. both are real authorities on the S6-40.

 

[nostrayvoltage]

idano

Perhaps I am being too stubborn, but I understand what they are saying, I just don't understand why.

What is there about a ZF6 that it requires such a "unique" lubricant??

Further on what basis would I choose between Castrol vs the GM fill? Viscosity??

Royalpurple claims to have suitable product but none of the other lubricant manufacturers offer a suitable product.

http://www.royalpurple.com/techa/tranxref.html

Check this chart for 1992-6 Corvettes.

no_stray_voltage@yahoo.com

 

[Tmoose]

"Is bronze unique to the ZF6??"
Every synchro ring I've seen has looked like bronze.
That's a few Saginaws and Muncies from 60s/70s, and early 80s Ford 4spd OD.
There's bronze, and then there's bronze.

I think ZFDoc referred to the ZF synchro's as some sintered bronze alloy, and claimed that was intentional to get porosity.
For years machine design type mags have blipped on "pressed metal" technology as (finally) suitable for a variety of high strength parts, and I think some modern passenger car engines have used connecting rods made via PM. The advantages usually cited are generating near-net shape (allows less machining) using cheaper equipment, and sometimes interesting material recipes. Until everybody embraces porous synchros I will suspect any porosity is a byproduct of the process, not a cherished property. Modern pressed metal brags how NON-porous it is.

 

[optimum]

I used to see t-5 after t-5 out of Mustangs that got the "Jiffy Lube" treatment. If you havent' had the experience: Drain out the ATF, install gear oil send the car down the road. It basically made them impossible to shift, I would drain them out, tear out the input retainer and inspect/replace the blocker (they used fiber material..explains why they use ATF) if it was toasted. Fill with regular ATF give it back to them. I would have them drive it for a week drain it and refill with Redline MTL, thats what we used and had good luck with it. I think its is similar to Royals Syncromax. I feel the synthetics are the only why to go.

 

[asfd56]

First of all thank you all guys i'm new here.
Could anyone tell me something about Ford specification ESD-M2C186-A? is this ATF?
Ford recomends this for manual gearbox mtx75 in my car owners manual (ford focus diesel year 2000), but searchin the Ford Technical Information System Spanish edition, they recomend M2C200-C wich is quite different i think.
Any way is hard to find some ESD-M2C186-A fluid here and i don`t know wich substitute will be better, an atf or a regular gear lub.

 

[bigtomwcp]

i didnt read all responses but i have used ATF in the past in nissan gear boxes and it doesnt last too long. i had a lot of trouble with roller bearings freezing up and syncros smoothing and not working well.

 

[Tmoose]

Hi bigtom !
I'm interested what series nissan, and what is the factory spec'd lube?

 

[32456]

I have Lada 110 (something like new Samara)and i use 80w in my manual gearbox. My gearbox is noisy in 1st, 2nd, and 3thrd gear but only in low rpm from 1200-1800rpm.About 1900rpm the noise completly disapier.Now i have 47000 kilometers but I have this problem from start!
I tried with 80w-90 and 90w but then the noise is worst.
Gearbox capacity is 3.3 lit, so it's robust.

Can I use atf dexron III?

If not, tell me some better advice?

Sorry if I done some mistake in english!

Thanks!!

 

[76GMC1500]

Borq Warner recommends either ATF or 75w90 in their T5 manual transmission. Normally, they say to use ATF, but if bearing noise is excessive or temperature are extremely high, use gear oil. If the transmission is hard to shift, they recommend ATF.

 

[carnage1]

I have the perfect solution to cars that are hard to shift
Double clutch your shifts and you'll never sweat your synchro's again.

(now if I could just get the hang of that heal toe downshift manuver while cornering)

 

[coyoteboy]

I've got crunchy gears in upshift and not in downshift, and double clutching doesnt make the slightest bit of difference. Wonder if the old ATF will work wonders...Toyota specifically say not, despite other boxes rolling off the production line at the same time being AFT filled.

James

 

[Rob45]

asfd56:
From the spec for Ford's ESD-M2C186-A:
"FLUID, AUTOMATIC TRANSMISSION, FRICTION MODIFIED,
FOR MANUAL TRANSMISSION USE-USE WSD-M2C200-C"

There you are;
- R

 

[evelrod]

Thanks Rob. Since I have been using ATF in various manual gearboxes in race cars (one street car) since 1967 or so, some years before Ford Tech wrote that spec., does that put me somewhat ahead of the curve? Just lucky?

Just kidding, as I learned that trick from someone else. There are still "tricks" that are being used in racing today that are in the classification of "black arts" ,as using ATF in manual gearboxes was in the '60's.
I talk about it now but, I never even hinted at it while I was still racing. I even have a few new ideas in my current vintage racer that I am not talking about. I get older but I still love to experiment. Some ideas work, some don't but, as I said before, "nothing ventured, nothing gained". Sorry for the cliche (I love them so).

Rod

 

[carnage1]

there are some trans that for long term use can't handle atf
the reson is the gears faces wear out because they assume a heavier oil also the bearings desinged for 80-90 don't last as long if run with atf. but it cherainly isn't instant death in most trans.
the opposite is also true. many boxes that take atf would come apart at the seams with somthing like 90-140 synthetic because the fluid doesn't flow well enough to adequitly lubricate that design.

some trans come with heavier fluid in them just to keep nvh guys happy and run perfectly with atf.

If I was racing i would try atf in the gear box and diff just change the fluid often and see how it works(alot of the new front wheel drives use atf for the diff)

 

[evelrod]

Carnage, I'll go along with all that you said except using ATF in rearends (in general).
If you dig through all the posts I have made on this subject over the last three years you will find that I experimented on that very thing in the mid 60's. It falls into the catagory of "not so hot an idea". Perhaps my downfall was the ATF in the 1950's drag car's "BEVEL GEARS" (from an early Cadillac, I think, maybe a Buick as my '37 had bevel gears).
It was only when I tried it in a 64 HyPo Fairlane with a 9" hypoid gearset that trouble set in. Only lasted a few days and began to make noise that, eventually sounded like a police siren!!!I picked up a used third member from Bobby Unser's wrecking yard and did like I was told, 90 wt.

My Mini Cooper vintage racer uses engine oil (Mobil 1 15W-50) for all the geartrain as well as the engine. If I had to guess, as I am not a front wheel drive authority, I would say ATF works okay because of the final drive gear design. Most likely bevel (straight cut) gears.

Rod