AutoCAD employed or NOT

[rKeyTek]

Based on a post by "Chicopee", I'm curious what screening process do people implement to hire AutoCAD draftsmen.

Here we implement a "Spanish Inquistion".
Guy/ girl comes in and we ask ...

What are defpoints?
What specail about it?

How many grips on a line versus a pline?

What's the command to draw a filled circle for a terminator?

Are blocks drawn on ZERO or whatever?
Explain the benefits of one over the other?

Explain drawing a viewport in Paper Space.
Now explain the zoom factor for that viewport.

Explain one benefit over Overlay versus Attached in XREFing.

After all that and some more questions ....
Show us your portfolio.

And let's discuss graphic line weight ....

And this pretty much has allowed us to get savy users.
But it's not fool proof...

 

[CADaver]

Ours is nearly the same, only we have 'em draw something. We have an engineering sketch (with a couple of errors) that they should be able to draw in under 15 minutes with plain-jane ACAD. I'm continually surprised that those who pass the first part in blazing colors, go down in flames attempting the simple sketch.

We had one young lady complain that it was the pressure of performing. Our response was that if she couldn't take that little bit of pressure, she'd never survive in our office.

 

[CADQUEEN]

I have actually created a written exam.
I give the potential employee the test and walk away for about a 1/2 hour.
If they pass then we talk.
I am against making them draw something.
My 1st interview out of school 8 million yrs ago, someone made me do that and I failed misably due to pressure!
It actually made me cry!..I don't cry anymore but it is alot of pressure. If they know their stuff they will pass the exam. Another point to make is I HATE working on other peoples computers!..everyone has their own setup and working with someone elses that your not familiar with along with the pressure is suicide in my opinion!
Just my 2 cents!

 

[rKeyTek]

I have to agree with CADaver, if the person can't take the pressure of an interview, than what will she/ he do when it's crunch time.
But CADqueen's point about people's machine is valid. That's why we don't ask them to draw.
But the face-to-face "faceoff" oral exam seems to go faster than the written exam.
Also you can see in their face if they know the answer but just don't know the techincal terms.

One or two questions can be answered in such a manner but not all of them. Depending their mannerism during the "Grill" usually depends if we hold it against them or we "throw them a bone".

I'm glad CADqueen put in her 2 pennies ...
And CADaver, too.

But I'd really like to see the other TOP experts for this forum "chime" in with posts ... please ....

I'm really interested in your thoughts too!

Thanks
Rich

 

[CADaver]

I like face-to-face, it gives me a "feel" for just how much "smoke" is being blown. As for makin' 'em draw, I've had guys that sounded real good, knew all the answers, resume' looked impressive. Then came time to draw... it wasn't pretty. They were shackled by "the-last-place-I-worked", none of that company's special functions and routines were there to do it all for them. They had no idea how to set-up a drawing without a "set-up" routine.

Bear in mind this isn't some finished major drawing or design effort. It's a simple 8.5x11 sketch that needs to be reproduced, a couple of squares, a couple of circles, a note or two and half a dozen dimensions.

BTW, around our shop, the test is the very LEAST pressure anyone ever sees. Try doing a full-blown drawing with 2 engineers at your desk and a project manager waiting by the plotter. It makes me cry, and I LIKE it. =(

 

[EngJW]

Wow

I am a mechanical engineer and have been using Autocad for about 15 years (Unigraphics, Computervision, and drawing board before that). I do a lot of concept layouts in 2d, using many sections and views, and then when I get it right I make the detail drawings. Rarely have I had anything on a drawing that a machinist did not understand.

However, I would flunk the test described in the first post. Maybe a draftsperson needs a different type of knowledge? I really don't think I'm incompetent.

John Woodward

 

[CADaver]

You've been using AutoCAD since R9 and couldn't answer those questions???? Which ones were the problem?

 

[Hayden]

I'd have to go along with John Woodward,

I may only have a meager 9 years going though.

I have no idea on the answers to these ones;

1. How many grips on a line versus a pline?
2. What's the command to draw a filled circle for a terminator? (What's a terminator??)
3. Are blocks drawn on ZERO or whatever?
4. Explain the benefits of one over the other?
5. Explain one benefit over Overlay versus Attached in XREFing.

 

[CADaver]

Terminator... okay... that's a specialized term that means arrowhead on a dimension.

The industry has changed radically in the last 30 yrs. Where once you learned to roll a pencil along an edge you had all the skills you'd ever need, now you HAVE to keep up with the changes in software as they happen. The tools you learned 9 years ago, (or 9 mos. ago for that matter) may no longer be the most efficient production tools available. And in multi-user/multi-discipline shops XREF capabilities are essential.

You guys are the reason we make candidates draw something. They may have been in a one-drafter office without the advantage of a power-user, or may have been self-taught and never exposed to advanced tools, but they can still produce a drawing. If the desire and aptitude is present, we can add tools to their toolbox.

 

[cadkid]

I am actually going through the hiring process right now, to get some one to fill my position. I am moving up and I need some one to take my place. This is the first time that I have ever been asked help in a hiring process, and quite frankly I am a little nervous about it. I want to choose the right person for the job, but at the same time I am ready to move into my new position. Currently I am contracted out as draftsmen to another company. We are a design build company and I am part of the facilities group. Our company policy is to try and promote within the company. I brought a person in yesterday who hasn't done any cad work in about 7 years. He has a technical engineering degree((?)not familiar with that area of engineering). After the interview I spoke to my supervisor (who is also contracted to this company from our home office)and voiced several concerns about the candidate. His reply was that the home office would not have sent if they didn't think he could handle the job, he has done harder things and by the way CAD isn't rocket science. Which by the way I was fairly insulted by that comment, it may not be rocket science, but anit childs play either! Upon being replaced I will be working inside the home office which I am very excited about, but I think that I have a responsiblity to make sure that our customer is taken care of. All of the post thus far have been great in helping me personally through this process, But I would like to know what people here thinks in regaurds to, Should I tell the customer what my misgivings are, or should I just let my supervisor take care of it? And I will definatley have a test the next applicate (if there is one).

 

[Hayden]

I think AutoCAD's greatest benefit is also it's greatest downfall. It's too easy to make a drawing that looks ok once printed. This makes it really easy for someones bad habbits to be unnoticed.

I remember my first ever job, I drew and detailed a chassis for a car stereo, it took me weeks. When my boss looked over it he found I had associative dims turned off. Needless to say my boss wasn't too impressed. I'm now contracting at a place where they've got a guy that's worked there for 15 years on ACAD and still doesn't use associative dims. Why? He doesn't like it.

His drawings look fine but they're a real pain to modify.

I think there's way more to bing a good CAD user than knowledge. You need to want to improve work practices. Most people that use forums such as this are people that want to improve I guess.

 

[CADaver]

CADKID,
Chain of command dude. It's there for a reason. If you've voiced your misgiving to your supervisor, you've covered your responsibility. Your Super may be aware of details that have not been shared with you, like the guy is the customer's son-in-law. How healthy for your carreer would telling the customer his son-in-law is a bozo be?

 

[cadkid]

Thanks CADaver,
I appreciate your cander, you are right of course. I kind of had that thought in the back of my mind, I guess I just wanted to have some one comfirm that for me.

 

[ohiocad]

I would have to argree with computer time as part of the process. I've worked with people that could read and repeat till no end, so they sounded like they knew it all, but couldn't define a block for anything.

Then there are those like me, that tend to show better than say, because the program IS, and doesn't worry about being diplomatic and tactful. It doesn't judge. It either does, or it doesn't. (Yoda flashback, sorry.....) I've worked with people that don't know a lot of the technical terms, or the speedy shortcuts, that can make some of the cleanest clearest CAD drawings you'd ever see.

Both parts serve a purpose. The written or oral, to see how well someone can communicate ideas. Even if they use less than technical terms, do they understand the concept? And, can they actually do it, show that it isn't just read-n-repeat?

Kind of what we run into here every day. "You got it to work on paper, now how about in real life?"

Of course, take into account a strange computer, strange menu (possibly), stress of job-hunting, etc.

But, the way I see it, at least for me, going from talking to the interviewer (which I know I'm not overly adept at... I know what I can do, let me show it, rather than try to sell it to you like a salesman) to a drafting test... When the program starts, it almost turns into "This is my world, I'm comfortable here, and I know what I can do. For the next few minutes, I don't have to worry about staring at the obvious rug the guy was wearing when I was talking to him, and saying something that will cost me the job."

Or something like that.........

 

[diamondjim]

I would be more interested in seeing a candidate
who understand geometry relationships for example,
draw a radius that passes thru an end point of a
line and also tangent to another parallel line
and that the radius is less than a 90 degree arc.
There is no autocad command for this and it has to be constructed from old drawing layout methods. Autocad
has made many draftsmen lazy. If there is not a
command they seem to forget first principles.
I think you have to tailor your test to what you are
required to produce in the way of drawings to relate
or convey the ideas to manufacturing in a clear manner.
How do dimension stack up with tolerances to get the
cheapest part and control the overall part with the
fewest steps to meet the dimensional requirements.

 

[egc]

Hmmmm. I assume you mean the arc angle is less than 90 degrees not the radius. But I think your point is that if they "can" draw it, you don't really care "how" they did it. But if they can't draw it, does that mean they are not capable of producing a decent drawing? After all, isn't that the real question?

Those who posted a written or verbal test approach should ask all of their autocad users to take the test (under the same conditions (okay, their jobs are not on the line!)). This way they (the test givers/interviewers) will have a baseline to use when judging potential employees. Maybe have the users make up a test to give to the interviewers so they will appreciate "testing".

Personally I like the "do a drawing" approach combined with a technical conversation about another drawing. In both cases the drawings should be discpline specific (where appropriate). I am a structural dude, so if someone asked me to produce a mechanical drawing I would be lost (assuming it required mechcanical designer knowledge). And, if the position is for a drafting position as opposed to a designer position (the two are different), make sure you distingush between the different knowledge levels.

On another note, beware of interviewer bias. A lot of times the interviewer may be the TG (technical guru) and they may not like someone who may challenge their position and knowledge (even on an intellectural level).

 

[Cyclefrog]

I'm no CAD whiz, but I can offer some observations about human nature:
If you make the interview/screening process sufficiently onerous to the candidate, he/she will, if hired, come into your organization with the conviction that you are an a**-h*** and will throw you under the bus at the first opportunity.
The trick in interviewing is to gain an understanding of the candidate's attitudes and skills without their ever feeling that they are under the microscope. And yes, the best candidates will be eager to show you what they can do.

 

[bot1357]

I have been using AutoCAD now for 10 years plus. I still learn something new everyday.

I try to keep my drawings simple and in a way that Joe Bloggs could edit. I always draw to snap and grid, which can dramatically reduce the editing time of a drawing. I always use different layer names eg. Text, equipment, etc. respectively. I try to imagine layers as pieces of see through paper and every time I draw anything I then bring my next piece of see through paper (layer) over the previous one...much like the people who draw cartoons etc. I always try to imagine my screen as the old type drawing boards with the different sizes of paper on it. I always start drawings from 0,0. I try to keep the drawing file size as small as I can, constantly purging everything. I use as many blocks as I can. Where I can I draw everything in polylines. I justify text properly whether it centrally justified, Left centre, right centre etc. I use attributed text for drawing title text. (by the way did you know that if you select attributed text in a specific order when you come to edit that text it will be in the order you selected).

Over all I keep it simple and easy to edit!

 

[CADaver]

hmmm... just a couple of comments...

<<&quot;I always start drawings from 0,0.&quot;>>
Only if they are not on coordinate. Most of what we do has an absolute coordinate. If the equipment is at W.1232'6&quot; by N.6594'3&quot;, that's where we put it.

<<&quot;Where I can I draw everything in polylines.&quot;>>
Only where polylines would be useful. A centerline does not need to be a polyline.

<<&quot;I always draw to snap and grid,&quot;>>
Snap, if you mean SNAPUNIT, only if the object resides on a snapunit that's usable. A foundation at W.1232'6&quot; by N.6594'3&quot; that's rotated 38.45degrees probably won't have any of it's elements on a snapunit.
Snap, if you mean OSNAP, of course, it's the accurate way to build geometry.
Grid?? what for??

<<&quot;constantly purging everything&quot;>>
Only before sending the file to a client. There maybe elements (blocks, layers) that will be needed later in the design process. But prior to zipping the files for transfer, we purge everything.

To sum up, there are relatively few rules that remain hard and fast across all disciplines.

 

[ivanlocke]

I'd say, pick the kid thats just gotten out of school, has AutoCAD and 3dStudio at home for entertainment, and whose biggest dream is to have a CAM in the garage at home.