Badge of Honor or Cloak of Incompetence 2

[autoTransEng]

What do you guys think of an engineer who has been fired from their job at some point in their career?

I had the unfortunate opportunity to get fired from a job and from my experience it was the best thing for me from a career standpoint. I quit looking at a company and a job as a friend and started to understand it from a more practical standpoint for my personal gain.

Do you think that engineers who have been fired are typically incompetent and can't get along with others? Or do you view them as someone with a backbone who probably stood up for themselves in the face of the ignorance that exist at a lot of organizations?

 

[tygerdawg]

I have seen the reasons for termination run the entire spectrum. From being caught doing bad things, to no reason whatsoever. I think those terminated generally are let go because the person somehow got to the top of the "fire them at the next opportunity" list for any number of reasons. The "next opportunity" is usually a downturn in economy/company health. I would hazard a guess that the top three reasons would be:
[ul]
[li](tie) some flavor of personality conflict between the fire-ee and the authority figure, or for being reasonably competent but whose personality causes disharmony in the organization[/li]
[li]economic downturn[/li]
[li]underperformance or incompetence[/li]
[/ul]

Just my opinion.

TygerDawg
Blue Technik LLC
Virtuoso Robotics Engineering

http://www.bluetechnik.com

 

[JohnRBaker]

When I was working at McDonnell Douglas we had to keep an up-to-date 'totem pole' for our group at all times. The 'totem pole' was a list of your subordinates in the order of their importance to the organization, with your best person at the TOP and and the one you could most easily get along without at the BOTTOM. During the course of the year, you were expected to keep this list as accurate as possible so that if you were asked to let someone go, you would be able to provide a name almost immediately. And when it came time to hand out merit raises, they had better match-up very closely with the order of the names on the list.

Now as for being able to fire someone, during management classes that we took we were told by HR that virtually ANYONE can be fired, but only if as their manager you've properly documented the problematic actions and behavior of the employee of interest. If you've got a paper trail, you've followed procedure, and when the time comes to 'pull the trigger' you let the HR people handle the actual notification, there will be NO problems, PERIOD. I was lucky, I never had to fire an employee for cause, but did have to let people go due to cutbacks.

John R. Baker, P.E.
Product 'Evangelist'
Product Engineering Software
Siemens PLM Software Inc.
Industry Sector
Cypress, CA

http://www.siemens.com/plm

UG/NX Museum:

http://www.plmworld.org/p/cm/ld/fid=209

To an Engineer, the glass is twice as big as it needs to be.

 

[KENAT]

First define 'fired'.

Do you mean just folks explicitly 'fired for cause', or do you include lay-offs/RIF's/Rightsizing...; termination 'At Will' and things like 'being persuaded to take early retirement' or coerced "voluntary layoff".

Answer that and we'll see what the response is.

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(probably not aimed specifically at you)
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[SNORGY]

I had to fire a 27-year guy, a professional engineer, mechanical engineering.

Among a myriad of other things...

Calculation of heat transfer...

mass x viscosity x temperature difference...

i.e., [m * cP * dT], as opposed to [m * Cp * dt]...

I explained:

"It's better to have a little pee in a big sea than a big pee in a little sea."

But, like I said, it was a lot of things just like that that finally left me with little choice. I needed more than that out of a 27-year mechanical engineer. That said, it was the toughest thing I ever did and I felt like a real turd for months afterwards. I don't ever want to fire or lay anyone off again. It is a brutal, dreadful feeling.

Regards,

SNORGY.

 

[JohnRBaker]

That's why I now have a 'staff job', all the perks of management, but none of the responsibilities ;-)

John R. Baker, P.E.
Product 'Evangelist'
Product Engineering Software
Siemens PLM Software Inc.
Industry Sector
Cypress, CA

http://www.siemens.com/plm

UG/NX Museum:

http://www.plmworld.org/p/cm/ld/fid=209

To an Engineer, the glass is twice as big as it needs to be.

 

[SomptingGuy]

I had a boss who was "asked to step down" by the CEO. Doesn't seem a problem to him now (apart from the seething resentment).

- Steve

 

[ajack1]

I totally agree with KENAT, I know employment law is very different in the USA to here in the UK but over here you need to follow a very stringent set of rules to fire anyone, except for gross misconduct, that include a series of verbal warnings followed by a series of written ones.

It is very hard to fire someone and if they can throw the discrimination card at you almost impossible. For that reason I would only employ someone who has been fired in very exceptional circumstances.

Being made redundant on the other hand can happen to anyone so I would not see that as a plus or minus on anyone’s CV.

 

[JohnRBaker]

Here in the US it's not so much what's explicitly stated in the so-called 'employment laws' (except in some special cases) it's more of what you can get a judge to agree to if a fired employee decides to sue the company and take it to court. This is why, as I mentioned earlier, when I was taking management classes at McDonnell Douglas we were told that if you could see that you were probably going to have to fire an employee for cause, that the first thing that you did was to contact HR and they would give you an outline of the steps that you needed to follow. This would include tracking when the employee arrived and left work, whether he took long lunches, excessive sick days, failure to complete tasks on time, deportment when in the office, anything that could be used to make the case that this person was not holding up his end of the log. And yes, you had to have conducted a minimum number of 'consultations' with the employee pointing out the issues that you were having with him/her and for heavens sake, don't give them a raise greater than the minimum that you were authorized or any sort of recognition or bonus during this period of time that you were 'keeping a diary' on him/her. And then when the times comes, you don't just tell the guy he's fired, you go to HR and they will handle it for you (you can be present, but they will do all the talking).

As I said, I was lucky. During my time in management I never had to fire anyone for cause (I came close once, but he quit just before he burned his last bridge). But you're right, you always felt bad even when it was 100% out of your control, such as during a general cutback or when someones job was just deemed as no longer needed. Of course, in those cases the person was generally given a chance to check if there was some other position in the company that perhaps he/she could be qualified for and while it was rare, it did happen occasionally.

One time, due to the elimination of an entire department, not so much because the company was having problems but simply because the tasks that this group performed were no longed needed, we had a very organized process. Now this didn't effect me or my people at the time since it was part of a sister organization, but what they did was put all the people in what was called the 'retraining pool' and they spent their time checking out other positions, updating their resumes, interviewing for potential new opening, taking a battery of new-skills training, etc. The ironic thing was that one of the guys was given a job that he described as the 'lifeguard' for the 'retraining pool' whereas he sort of made sure that these people didn't screw-off or waste their time since they were still getting weekly paychecks, as was he, since it was his organization which was getting the axe. Anyway a notice went out asking the managers in the other groups to seriously look at the members of 'pool' before going outside to file vacancies. Well we happened to have a slot we had been trying to fill that required a specific skill set (basic CAE expertise) and when we looked at the list of 'pool' members, the one guy who fit our bill was the 'lifeguard'. However his management had the gall to suggest that we wait until the rest of the 'pool' was cleared out before we could have him. I finally had to kick it up to my manager to get to someone who could overrule the other manager. It turned out to be a good move all around as a couple of years later I got prompted and transferred to Michigan and the 'lifeguard' ended in my job ;-)

John R. Baker, P.E.
Product 'Evangelist'
Product Engineering Software
Siemens PLM Software Inc.
Industry Sector
Cypress, CA

http://www.siemens.com/plm

UG/NX Museum:

http://www.plmworld.org/p/cm/ld/fid=209

To an Engineer, the glass is twice as big as it needs to be.

 

[DHambley]

We seem to have drifted from the original thread from AutoTransEng.
Badge of Honor? In many cases probably yes but only if it's a layoff, not a firing. As a consultant I work at a lot of different firms and have seen people fired at several places. It usually is for incompetance, not long lunches or anything like that. But as for layoffs, I have seen some very good engineers layed off and more often than not, its the guy who isn't liked personally by the boss. Usually it has nothing to do with his skills, but when the department budget has to be cut by 30%, they will easily find an escuse.

 

[LiteYear]

In my opinion there is no way to determine a fired engineer is incompetent, incompatible or has a backbone without actually asking them. And it's that response that makes all the difference. Certainly I haven't come across any significant prejudice - it happens to many, good and bad.

If the response is laced with vitriol, bad mouthing the previous employer then I'd conclude they're a potentially caustic person who is likely to have a spat with a future coworker.

If the response indicates they were out of their depth then they better have addressed that with education or a change in focus.

If the response indicates that there were differences in opinion, that a resolution could not be reached, that the environment was unhealthy and most importantly, that they learnt from the experience, then I think it's good job experience.

 

[Qshake]

My experiences run very similar to John Baker's first post...eerily similar!

I did wind up firing one staff engineer....a youngster hired within 6-8mo that just didn't get it. Way too much "me" time for himself, terrible overuse of personal electronics, and lack of motivation to do any real work. All those items put together made me feel more at ease with the action taken.

I do agree there is a big difference in firing, i.e. performance issue versus layoff for economical reasons. Still, as John Baker mentioned, rankings are kept and the appropriate reviews should match closely in order to effect the layoff in quick order should it become necessary.

Regards,
Qshake

Eng-Tips Forums:Real Solutions for Real Problems Really Quick.

 

[moltenmetal]

Layoff or redundancy? It can and does happen to everyone, myself included. My one and only layoff was the best thing that ever happened to me because it got me out of a dead industry into a living one. I've never looked back.

Being fired for cause? That tends to be a black mark, and had better come with a very straightforward explanation which is offered rather than asked for during an interview. Most employers find a way to sever ties in a way that makes it look more like a layoff than a firing, saving face for both parties. The only time they terminate outright for cause is if they have a well documented case for cause, or else they'd risk a lawsuit which would potentially cost them a lot more than severance pay.

 

[casseopeia]

Maybe it's me, but I'm starting to read that it's OK to be an incompetent employee, as long as when you get chopped, they call it a layoff, just so no one gets their panties in a bunch, files a lawsuit forcing everyone to attend the interview at the EDD.

But if you are a capable and competent professional who receives a 'dismissal for performance issues' and labeled a trouble maker because during your employment you refused to falsify reports, refused to disclose proprietary information from your previous employer, who also happens to be a competitor, and had a nasty habit of quoting labor board rules and regulations when coerced into working overtime for no pay and denied expenses for job-related use of a personal car, it's a black mark to be worn like a red F on one's lapel.

It depends if you get fired by a benevolent saint or the lying, cheating, scamming spawn of Lucifer.

"Gorgeous hair is the best revenge." Ivana Trump

 

[JohnRBaker]

It depends if you get fired by a benevolent saint or the lying, cheating, scamming spawn of Lucifer.

Yep, basically the same criteria which determines whether you can take your vacation when you want to or not ;-)

John R. Baker, P.E.
Product 'Evangelist'
Product Engineering Software
Siemens PLM Software Inc.
Industry Sector
Cypress, CA

http://www.siemens.com/plm

UG/NX Museum:

http://www.plmworld.org/p/cm/ld/fid=209

To an Engineer, the glass is twice as big as it needs to be.

 

[Comcokid]

In 32 years of engineering I have seen:

> One engineer fired for theft of equipment.
> One engineer (competent) fired for laziness.
> Four average to extremely competent engineers fired/singular-layoff for not fitting with the 'politics'.
> Two engineers fired/singular-layoff for standing-up to unethical business practices.

I cannot recall an engineer being fired for incompetence. Incompetant engineers usually disappear in general layoffs. Surprisingly, the three most jaw-dropping-incompetent people with engineering degrees I can recall were retained during layoffs for reasons I could never fathom - and I'm not joking - were later promoted into higher management positions.

So when I review resumes for interviews if there is a potential 'question' in their work history, I realize there is a 6 out of 8 chance that it may be a positive mark, because I'm one of the 6 listed above.

 

[brandonbw]

I have seen many people get fired at a past job. I was surprised to see what the company was willing to tolerate too. People coming in and falling asleep the entire day snoring in their chairs. That guy was let go because his work obviously never got done.

Then there were other people who turned in work that looked like garbage over and over and really upset the developer we were working for. I guess you can only do that so many times before a large developer fires the Engineer for garbage plans.

Another guy did a large building's condo plans completely wrong.

The list could go on for a long time, in fact no one would ever believe me how fast the turnaround was at this place. I learned a lot there too, partially because of all the bad workers.

Now is any of that a badge of honor? Maybe if you wanted to tell some funny stories on how you are an idiot who got paid to do nothing except screw around.

B+W Engineering and Design
Los Angeles Civil and Structural Engineering

http://bwengr.com

 

[moltenmetal]

Cass, your situation is atypical. You probably do have a case for wrongful termination. You have a very good explanation that would make any employer actually worth their salt rather MORE likely to hire you after hearing about it. In fact, when I said that about having a good explanation, I was thinking about you.

Then again, most sane people would have quit long before you were fired. So some people might not have had as much respect for you for staying as if you'd quit! Depends on how much suffering they expect their employees to endure on their behalf. I see it now: you'll become their "problem clients specialist"! Ugh...