Being Assertive About Your Level of Responsibility vs. Compensation 1

[Stringmaker]

I'm an ME and I graduated five years ago. I presently work for a gas turbine aircraft engine company as a structures engineer/analyst. Since starting with the company about 3 years ago I have always received great reviews. Here is my dilemma:

I would like to receive a promotion but have not received what I have requested yet. I have had a couple talks with my supervisor about this and was offered a similar position in another business unit a few months ago but declined. In my company merit (yearly) increases were deferred until this September (we have yet to get final word that we will actually receive them however). Promotions are different than merit increases. I have heard of people receiving promotions - though not as often or generous due to the economic situation at the moment.

My day to day duties are comprised to two functions primarily. I lead the structural analysis work for the specific portion of the engine I am responsible for and also do a substantial amount of outsourcing oversight of the actual engineers doing the FEA in India. People of my labor grade are rarely capable of overseeing these responsibilities thus it is not expectations. Such responsibilities are typically allocated to those with 10+ years. I voluntarily stepped into this role a year ago thinking it would pre-empt a promotion. I'm still waiting for the promotion and frankly I do not find what I do fulfilling. I love the line of work but I would much prefer to do it rather than instruct others in doing it. We are in a very busy time now and have many final product reviews coming up in the next couple of months. Once things are closed out if I still have not received the promotion I desire shortly after I am thinking about sitting down with my supervisor to discuss the situation and request a more normal workload (for my labor grade) unless a promotion will be coming soon.

The truth be told I don't mind what I do now. However, I do mind doing it for the level of compensation I receive. I have no problems handling the added stress of the situation now but would appreciate something in return. On the otherhand, I would be more content (not to be confused with happy) staying at my present salary with lower expecations.

I know there are very few easy jobs out there and some would argue I should be happy to have a job. I am grateful for that but setting those aside how have others in a similar situation handled them? I'm curious to hear.

Regards.

 

[MikeHalloran]

I agree; this is _not_ a good time to make demands of your supervisor. Keep your head down and your mouth shut.





Mike Halloran
Pembroke Pines, FL, USA

 

[GregLocock]

If you ask for a lesser level of responsibility then your supervisor will have to find someone else to take over the oversight job and he will resent that.

If you carry on doing exceptional work for your grade/age/pay then you /may/ get the promotion you desire. I don't rate the probability especially high, but on the basis that they will have to promote people eventually (or bring in more senior people from outside, as is common) you have put yourself in a reasonable position.

We'd all (possibly an exaggeration) rather just do the technical stuff that attracted us to engineering, rather than the organising stuff that gets in the way. But that is rarely how organisations work.

If you do figure out how to tell your bosses that you want to do less(ie easier) work for the same pay without it sounding like a hissy fit, please do tell us.



Cheers

Greg Locock

SIGlease see FAQ731-376 for tips on how to make the best use of Eng-Tips.

 

[rbulsara]

Welcome to real and modern world! No one pays more than they have to. Everyone wants more than what they get. If you ask for more and they don't give you and you keep working there, they will determine that you are not going anywhere. Do not expect raise anytime soon.

Only way to get compensated more, is to change the job. Look for a new job, go through some interviews to see what your market value is.

 

[Ron]

Wake up! The level of work you desire is already being outsourced and you're supervising them! You're trying to work yourself out of a job.

If you want a promotion, go to your supervisors and get them to map a progression for such promotion. If they can't do that, then you're probably not in line for one. Be satisfied or move on.

 

[Japher]

You won't get where you want to be by continuing to do what you have done.

I agree not to ask for much, but work isn't the only place you can improve yourself to get ahead. Maybe it's time to get a masters.

 

[kontiki99]

I think it's fine to express your concerns, but be very careful to keep to relevant facts to make your case.

I'd base it on your contribution to the company vs comparisons to others. Make sure everything you say is appropriate, no wild stuff. It's just business.

They need to know you believe you should be getting more that they are paying you.

Sometimes being a good negotiator garners you additional respect.

 

[vc66]

Stringmaker-

Don't want to hijack your thread, but similarly-- we've just been told today (only the mechanical guys), that we're not only Mechanical Engineers now, but we're project managers as well. We'll get assigned certain projects where we'll be responsible from everything to design to procurement to testing/release. I'm used to this in my older job (product design), but I got compensated MUCH better there.

They (management) market this as "a great opportunity to learn more about the tools". I think they're pissing on us, and telling us it's lemonade.

I don't know what you're going to be doing, but I'm definitely going to express my concerns.

Be careful, however, how you come off. If you sound like you're complaining, management will have a vendetta against you.

Good luck.

V

 

[KENAT]

I'll second what Greg says. Once you agree to do extra work, for whatever reason, it's then incredibly difficult to say you aren't going to do it any more.

My wife did similar, she had so much extra work she was getting health issues trying to do what about 4 people had been doing until a few months earlier. She expressed her concerns and basically got told she'd do what she was told or be fired and then endured months of victimization by management. Oh, and this was in a union government job in a warm & fuzzy social work organization.

So, I wouldn't count on it working out well in presumably more commercial company. That’s not to say it’s right or fair but that’s how it is.

You have options to try and find other employment. Also the idea of asking what would be required to get the promotion isn’t bad either. However, now’s not a good time to be in this kind of situation.

Ron brings up a good point too, it sounds like they’re outsourcing the type of work you ‘want’ to do so do you really think there’s an option to do that again with your current employer?

VC66, you meant our management don'd pi$$ soft drinks? I'll have to get my taste buds tested. I've lost track of what I do now compared to what I was hired to do and whether or not the various pay raises, freezes & cuts have kept up with it. At least I'm a citizen now though so can start looking more widely.

KENAT,

Have you reminded yourself of faq731-376 recently, or taken a look at posting policies:

http://eng-tips.com/market.cfm?

What is Engineering anyway: faq1088-1484

 

[ewh]

Congrats, KENAT!!!

"Good to know you got shoes to wear when you find the floor." - [small]Robert Hunter[/small]

 

[KENAT]

Thanks ewh, but I don't want to take this off track. Maybe I'll have to get a round in the pub.

KENAT,

Have you reminded yourself of faq731-376 recently, or taken a look at posting policies:

http://eng-tips.com/market.cfm?

What is Engineering anyway: faq1088-1484

 

[GregLocock]

On Ron's point, there is a bit of Toyota wisdom, you won't necessarily like it, but I'll repeat it.

"The only man who is assured of finding another job is one who knows how to eliminate his old job."

Bit of Eastern wisdom there, Grasshopper.

In this case, if you can succesfully handle outsourcing analytical work, then you will always be able to find a job managing analysts. It can only get easier if they are on site.



Cheers

Greg Locock

SIGlease see FAQ731-376 for tips on how to make the best use of Eng-Tips.

 

[Stringmaker]

Thank you to everyone for your replies so far. You've helped to put a lot in perspective and reaffirm other things. I respect my direct manager a great deal. He's without a doubt the best manager I've ever had and I would never step on his toes. I have discussed the fact that I would like a promotion and he readily acknowledges that I am working above and beyond what's expected. I believe he has only a limited amount of say in the matter. Executive management allocates a certain $$ for promotions and that has to be dispersed amongst everyone.

I am 2/3 done with my MSME at the moment so that may be a door opener once complete. I'm happy with where I'm at aside from compensation as I mentioned earlier. I've decided I'm staying put for the next year until I'm finished with my degree and will re-evaluate the situation then.

Greg, you make a good point in your last post. I do like managing a certain amount of analytical work and wish to continue doing so. The problem lies in finding a balance between managing the work and doing some yourself. It seems it's either one or the other and very hard to find a middle ground. We have many different development programs going on at the moment so few people who are interested in the analytical end of things anymore that we've been forced into outsourcing everything and serving as oversight (babysitters if you like). It's always nice to have your hands directly in something and I think promotes learning as well.

I'm going to keep my nose to the ground and keep doing what I'm doing. It's very hard to drive change especially in large organizations. If the situation doesn't change then I'm going to change the situation when the time is right. That time just isn't now.

 

[romulus2009]

Stringmaker,

I relate to you in two ways. The first, is that I can take a guess at what company you are talking about, because I believe I had an interview with them for a position that sounds a lot like yours, except it was the Thermal and Fire Protection Department. My job would have involved being responsible for the particular parts of the gas turbine engine as far as thermal design and performance. It was actually a sort of dream job for me, but because of various issues, it didnt happen for me. This job would have involved "getting the job done" no matter what tools you used. You could scribble formulas with a pencil on paper, you could write thousands of lines of MATLAB code, you could do your own CFD, or you could outsource it to Poland and India and be responsible for other people's work.

The other reason I relate is that I feel the same exact way about my current job. I've got the feeling that I'm possibly among the top 3% of the busiest people in the company, and a core of very important activities. Basically, I am responsible for very critical activities that would result in the doom of a project if I did not do them right. I have no supervisor, I report directly to Senior Management, and I outsource, distribute, direct and evaluate the activities of others. Sounds a lot like management to me, more than engineering. On top of all of this I also do a lot of technical work, besides the managerial work. Lately, I've also been doing commercial work and dealing a lot with prices.

Yet, my title and my pay do not relect the level of responsibility I hold. What do I do about it? Nothing. Why? Because all you have to do is go to the "Pat's Pub" and check out the "job status" thread to see just how many people are without a job, or feel insecure about their job status, or have received pay cuts, 401k cuts, or hour cuts etc.

Also, I dont know about your particular case, but in my case although my pay-level and title reflect my experience level, they dont reflect the actual level of responsibility level.

My attitude right now is be thankful for the opportunity I have to learn and progress really fast unofficially (without titles, pay raises etc), to be grateful for the huge work-load, which to me is better than zero workload and just let things settle.

When projects start raining from the sky, when people start getting promotions and raises all around you, when you are expanding...that's the time to start becoming aggressive with your bosses and get what you deserve, no more, no less, based on your experience, skills, knowledge, effort and workload.

My 2 cents,

Romulus

 

[gwolf2]

Middle management is a bad place which should be viewed as a series of unstable stepping stones to senior management. It is an area to be moved through as quickly as possible.

I suggest either drive forward through to more senior roles by being agressive, dedicated and dishonest if necessary, or return to the relatively more stable ground of skilled technical labour.

If you choose to return to technical labour, gravitate towards security clearance projects which can't be outsourced.

Yet another grasshopper moment from Gwolf.

If only the practicalities of changes were as easy to deal with as identifying the changes themselves .....................................

 

[thruthefence]

I would suggest that you review current aircraft delivery levels, as well as those projected for the next few years. While i don't know if you are in the USA, I would also ask you to review the current administration's view on Corporate aircraft usage, and the power they control in the current Congress. ( except such aircraft usage in the service of the Democratic party ).

 

[grimmy65]

I feel your pain Stringmaker because I am in a very similar situation. I am very thankful that I am still employed but I can’t help but feel that I am underpaid, not solely for my responsibilities but for my education. I started doing cad work full-time before I got my engineering degree but now that I have my degree and engineering level responsibilities, I haven’t received that promotion that was due six months ago.

After putting some serious thoughts and prayers into the subject, I realized that you can tough it out for as long as possible but in the end it is your happiness that matters. Why continue to do something that doesn't make you happy? This doesn’t just apply to the type of work you do but also your own justification for working somewhere.

I have decided to keep waiting due to the %100 tuition reimbursement program that slightly makes up for being underpaid. It doesn’t hurt to start looking other places, as you have already done. As I read on another thread in this forum, you can always look for and respectfully decline jobs when you still have one.

 

[salmon2]

stringmaker,

You are not alone, I am monitoring your thread for advices. but feel probably nothing I can do to change the situation.

Salmon2

 

[Stringmaker]

I'm still in the same situation the good news is that there are job postings opening up in my company and there is opportunity to move around. I don't understand why changing jobs is the only way to get a promotion but that's the way it is. Be it counterproductive as it may be.

Our last staff meeting my supervisor notified us that we are going to be having intermediate performance discussions in the next few weeks. In addition to that, I'm also going to take the opportunity to reiterate the situation to my supervisor and kindly let him know that if something is not done about the situation by a certain date then I'm going to seek out the right opportunity to move elsewhere given that a promotion is part of the deal. Raises are scheduled for October 1st (if they really do happen).

Last year's crop of college new hires were just promoted from their Associate status and their raises bring them up to what I make. That's four years worth of salary compression and I simply do not thing that's right. I will update as things evolve.

 

[salmon2]

Stringmaker,

I feel you about your new hires promotion. Our company also got a new group of so called analysts in this engineering building. Basically they are timing everything that I am doing. They don't do really dXXm thing, but push me for all kinds of data/update. I have no idea what they are making or if any comparison to me. But to me, they are totally useless if not counterproductive.

Let us know your progress. But do it gently unless you have a backup. By the way, I just got a recruiter call which I haven't got any for a long time. Does that mean the job market is picking up,