Best Building Automation Control Brands

[fiberstress]

Hello,

Interested in opinions of the top/best BAC system manufacturers out there today (Johnson, ALC, etc.). My personal key factors are programmability/maintainability, component interchangeability, technical support, and reliability.

Thanks in advance

 

[kacarrol]

I would ask for a tour of local facilities with your prospective controller supplier installed and have a nice chat with the people that work with those systems...probably want Siemens and Honeywell added to your list.

 

[hollandhvac]

In short I have goop experiences with siemens and TAC xenta

 

[urgross]

My personal favorite was Cylon. Unfortunately, they do not have extensive support, so I don't use it. I believe that it comes down to the quality of local support. When I was in Washington, DC, I would never use Johnson. At the more rural location I am at now, the local support is fantastic.

 

[EnergyProfessional]

Whatever you chose, it should be based on NIAGRA.

Other than that, it really depends on qualified contractors which brand to use and how good and expensive the support is. We use Honeywell, I heard Johnson has very expensive support. but that really depends on the local people.

 

[ChasBean1]

My favorite used to be Andover Controls, then TAC (Tour-Andover Controls), then Schneider Electric, but now they're too big for their britches just like Siemens and they have BACnet protocols that overall make the systems suck.

An example of why the BACnet-laden systems suck is that there are thousands of BAS points versus hundreds. It bogs down the systems in a bad way and I've seen it kill their ability to even graphically function during building standby power.

I liked the TAC versatility because you could change set points, analog inputs, and anything at all, making the system great for testing and commissioning.

Nowadays I like the Niagara platform, simple and web-based. General rule for me is to stay away from the people who got too big for their britches and who have good local support.

 

[cry22]

Thanks Chass
could you elaborate on pros and cons of NIAGRA Vs BacNet?

 

[fiberstress]

I see a lot of mention of support. If you're referring to support as in calling in a tech to re-program, this is a big factor we're trying to get away from. We're a contractor and service company, and we'd like to reduce our dependence on outside programmers because until we're a certified service company, we're not allowed to purchase the programming software. We have the smarts, just being restricted by the old proprietary bully.

I was a big fan of National Instruments in school but that's more geared toward lab testing. It shouldn't be too hard to find one that suits us (like NI), but it's hard to get literature from most of the big outfits without being forced to talk to a sales person.

 

[EnergyProfessional]

Fiberstress: if you have the smarts, no one is stopping you from getting certified by Honeywell et al. It is good for the costumer that there is some level of requirement to become an "Integrator"

Cry22: Niagara is a platform by Tridium. honeywell, et al license that and buidl their own hardware. Like windows in a way. The advantage is if you know Honeywell, you should be able to program Johnson control etc. Also the hardware supposedly is interchangeable. although I'd think using same manufacturer controllers and JACE is best. It is JAVA based.

BACNET is just a protocol, like Lonworks and Modbus etc. BACNET is favored by ASHRAE, but Lonworks is not worse. Most equipment has BACNET or LONworks options to communicate hundreds of points. but it is not tied to Niagara.

google, look here etc.

 

[ChasBean1]

Cry, no, can you? It sounds like a loaded question! I’m not a controls programmer but have worked with various programmers for years. My general preference is for simplicity with the BAS. We don’t need to use the BAS to monitor a pump and VFD combination for example by having 99 points from the speed drive menu. Accessing the full VFD programming menu through the BAS might only be useful if all points are also writable through the BAS, which I haven’t seen yet in practice. And the only reason to have it fully BAS-programmable is if operators never want to leave their chair and walk to the equipment. If the BAS needs to poll the attached system and a pump/VFD combination that could have a CT for amperage/status, a speed feedback and a VFD general alarm, it is (as I’ve heard) much less taxing on the BAS system than polling for all of the additional points available through the combined protocols...

I think I’ve just opened the door for the BAS folks to attack… Bring it on – I’m in here to learn as well!

 

[fiberstress]

HerrKaLeun, having to get certified by the company to buy the software needed to maintain your own property without having to pay that company for a service call is exactly what we want to avoid. In our business (install. & maint.) it's one of the main factors we look at when purchasing equipment. That said, we do have a few of our techs going to school right now for one particular system, but we need access to several brands.

I took a look at Schneider, and like their other products, they seem to fit. Anyone have any specific negatives on Schneider?

 

[EnergyProfessional]

fiberstress: As I said, any Niagara-based system would be good and very similar. i believe the manufacturer would even recognize generic Niagara Training. For example, part of your Honeywell of Johnson Control certificate doesn't need to be done by said manufacturer. It is like website creation in a sense. Once you know how to make a website, you should be good for all browsers...

For selling and installing systems contractors typically just use one brand. To your client it doesn't' matter anyway as long as it is Niagara. But maintaining certifications and knowing all the ins and outs for several brands seems impractical for a small shop.

ChasBean1: I don't know why having more points should slow down your BAS. Something must be wrong. How many points you can see via BACNET depends on the device and how many it ha. Could be 10, could be 100. Monitoring chiller compressors etc. doesn't really use resources... you don't really do anything with that. If your system is slow, could be network problem ,or whoever programmed it made it bad. the frontend is JAVA based, so may be an issue with your PC. It for sure is not the fact that you may read too many points. and most of the BACNET points are read-only. You usually don't process all those chiller refrigeration pressure data...

 

[fiberstress]

Thank you, sir, I'll look into that. Do you have a few best recommended brands running Niagara? On standardizing a brand, we're stuck with what the customer (Air Force Base) has installed in the past, but are trying to establish a best line for future installations; one that's much more open than what's installed now; one that we can maintain, change, & fine tune after installation without having to rely on an authorized rep. If anyone know's what that system is, that's really my main question.

 

[EnergyProfessional]

WE use Honeywell in all our facilities and it is great. I really like Honeywell in general for Valves, actuators, sensors etc. (There is not need to buy these from the BAS manufacturer!).
but what it comes down to is that the local Honeywell contractor is really good to work with. From a controller point I'm sure all major manufacturers will be good - the actual support is what matters.

 

[Waramanga]

Agreed, BAS quality is completely dependant on the local support for all but the most complicated systems in my experience.

Around here the installers install for nothing and charge like wounded bulls for service, fitouts etc. The best you can hope for is good service while you are getting your wallet emptied. I know it sounds jaded but the reality is some building owners here are pulling out five year old BAS (three building worth) to remove themselves from the clutches of a particular brands high prices and low quality service.