Best Motor Starting Contactor/Starter 4

[foxhoundme]

Who has the best motor starting contactor/starter? I am in the market for a reliable electromechanical motor starter rated at 480V with 22Amps. I researched the following manufacturers such as Square D Company, Allen Bradley, Cutler Hammer, Siemens and General Electric. Can someone provide their best argument for either manufacturer's starter product?

 

[PUMPDESIGNER]

jbartos - By Market is a good way to look at this issue. Manufacturer's can get very focused on the hundreds of specific issues for a particular market and be very well suited for that market if they made wise decisions.

The specifics that make a product very good for a particular market is however hard to analyze because experience is usually required, and that does not pass around easily, nor can this easily be documented in such a manner as to make it easily understood by others.

PUMPDESIGNER

 

[jbartos]

Suggestion to the previous posting: The original posting is somewhat open to industry applications since it does not mention a particular application sample.

 

[jbartos]

Suggestion to foxhoundme (Mechanical) Sep 30, 2003 marked ///\\\
Who has the best motor starting contactor/starter?
///It depends. Please, would you be more specific for which application, industry, etc.?\\ I am in the market for a reliable electromechanical motor starter rated at 480V with 22Amps.
///Are you interested in classical reliability parameters, e.g. MTBF, MTTR, availability, life-cycle, etc.?\\ I researched the following manufacturers such as Square D Company, Allen Bradley, Cutler Hammer, Siemens and General Electric. Can someone provide their best argument for either manufacturer's starter product?
///Again, it depends. Please, would you be more specific?\\\

 

[afterhrs]

PD,
While IEC may be better at detecting loss of phase for incoming power, In my experience, they are a lot less equipped to handle motor failures. I have seen several IEC contactors welded together because motor failure. This will render the solid state overload useless(and also destroyed). The fuses above the contactor have to all blow
for the situation to end. I personally have never seen a set of NEMA contactors welded together. I believe NEMA to be much better for providing motor failure protection.
The motor, contactor, and overload all have to be replaced with an IEC motor failure.
I have concluded that if your motor is going to be in a harsh enviroment with a higher failure rate, definiteley use NEMA.


Regards
Afterhrs

 

[GGOSS]

Hello All,

I am still concerned about some of the comments being made here!

1. IEC 'contactors' do not offer protection against single phasing. The 'overload relay' used with either an IEC or Nema contactor can provides this functionality.

2. IEC contactors do not have a service life of seven years.

3. IEC contactors do not need to be protected by facst acting fuses. Correctly co-ordinated, standard fuses and/or breakers will provide protection to 50kA and above.

4. A phase to phase or phase to earth fault on the load side of a Nema contactor will cause the contacts within the contactor to weld ie just as it would for an IEC contactor. Again, this is a fusing issue not a contacotr issue.

5. At least one of the leading manufacturuers of Nema contactors mentioned here also manufactures high qulaity IEC contactors. As I am a distributor of their products, I know what the thrust of their developments and promotions is & where they see the future. It's IEC.

There are several more eroneous comments in this thread! I feel very sorry for those who look to eng-tips as a place of learning.

Regards,
GGOSS

 

[afterhrs]

GGOSS,
I encourage you to review my previous postings in this thread again. They are both based on my individual experience and what " I " have seen as pointed out by these statements

1)" Here are some factors I take into account for determining IEC vs. NEMA in the order of precedence."

2) " I have seen several IEC contactors welded together
because of motor failure."

3) " I personally have never seen a set of NEMA contactors welded together."

I stand by my comments as to what " I " have seen, or as to how " I " would determine what specification to use.

One of the most powerful forms of advertising around is word of mouth. Always has been , always will be. Until we have some sort of unbiased third party ( like an industrial consumers reports) available, most of us will continue word of mouth through whatever medium is available, including this one. I certainly cannot look to a distributor or their sales staff for an unbiased opinion( no offense intended ). I ,for one, dont ever want to tell a customer that the product I specified is not holding up. When I put my name on the line, the last thing I want is bad word of mouth reputation.

I also find very it very interesting you did not take issue specifically with my comment about increasing the size of IEC contactor by 1/3. I read your last blanket statement about eroneous comments, wich is why I find it interesting you did not take issue with this one.

Regards,
Afterhrs

 

[foxhoundme]

jbartos - Thank you for your clarification.

Foxhoundme
Q1. Who has the best motor starting contactor/starter?

jbartos
A1. It depends. Please, would you be more specific for which application, industry, etc.?

Foxhoundme
Comment: It is a pump application in a process industry.

Foxhoundme
I am in the market for a reliable electromechanical motor starter rated at 480V with 22Amps.

jbartos
Q2. Are you interested in classical reliability parameters, e.g. MTBF, MTTR, availability, life-cycle, etc.?

Foxhoundme
A2. My reference would be life-cycles at normal loading.


Foxhoundme
I researched the following manufacturers such as Square D Company, Allen Bradley, Cutler Hammer, Siemens and General Electric. Can someone provide their best argument for either manufacturer's starter product?

jbartos
Comment: Again, it depends. Please, would you be more specific?

Foxhoundme
In general I am looking for arguments for either manufacturers contactor/starter life-cycles. Which manufacturer from personal experince has provided the best level of performance in your opinion? Jbartos, thank you for yout time and thoughts on this subject.

 

[GGOSS]

Hello Afterhours,

I agree with your comments in the main, nothing beats practical experience! Sometimes however, our opinion about products, services or even meals can be tainted by a ‘single’ not so pleasant experience.

As implied if not stated in my previous posts here, I have absolutely no objection to Nema contactors and would go so far as to agree that they can provide benefits in certain environments.

Yes, the company I work for does market IEC contactors together with a large variety of other switchgear and control gear products. I therefore have a bunch of experience in this area and like you, was simply making comment from my own practical experience.

For the record, I am not in sales and am not trying to push any particular barrow (in fact my main area of focus is soft starters and variable speed drives). To that end you will note that I have not made any derogatory comments about the Nema product and have not made any reference to IEC product/brand for promotional purposes.

Finally, in response to your question as to why it was that I didn’t list or respond to the subject of up-sizing IEC contactors. I have never had a need to do so and am not aware of this practice in general industry.

Trust the above clarifies my position.

Best Regards,
GGOSS

 

[PUMPDESIGNER]

foxhoundme - I would love to make a recommendation on your request, but my experience has been limited to two brands for good report, and my warning above about unknown brands.

We have used Square D/Telemecanique IEC Contactors for up to 75 hp for about 15 years. Probably about 3-4 thousand units total. We are aware of one overload that did not protect a motor from small overload and allowed the motor to fry. That is pretty good report I would say. We have never heard anything but respect for these contactors from competitors or anyone else in our industry (water pump stations).

As for NEMA, we have never used them but I would from experience in specifications say that the Westinghouse Advantage NEMA Starters with solid state overload protection is probably the Cadillac. If you or your customer can afford these units you get the best of both worlds, NEMA and total accurate overload protection with phase loss and unbalance protection. But you can also purchase solid state overloads for IEC contactors, which would lower your cost.

GGOSS is very correct to mention welded contacts. Contactor/overload set (both IEC and NEMA) is not designed nor intended to interrupt major short circuit or ground fault. NEC requires circuit breakers/fuses for that purpose. The UL tests in fact assume that if a major fault occurs that the contactor must be protected by the circuit braker/fuse set. The principle is coordinated protection - Circuit Breakers/Fuses for large or major Overcurrent, and Overload Protection for Low to Moderate Overcurrent which cannot be detected by circuit breakers or fuses before dangerous heat rise in the motor.

PUMPDESIGNER

 

[afterhrs]

GGOSS,
I understand what you are saying about the one strike and out philosophy, many people put that one to practice.

Some of the people I have met in a similar position to yours would not have been so honest about what they do and would have been unable to refrain from making a product endorsement.

You are to be commended for your intregrety!

PUMPDESIGNER,
Did you say you have been using Telemechanique for fifteen years with out any problems?

 

[kitha]

afterhrs!
I would say, I have been using Telemecanique for around 8 yrs specifying in my specs. Frankly I have come across some failures. But as a general it's a good contactor. I referred to one of my very good friends in North America and found the failures of the contactors(NEMA) he uses. This is just something not to argue and discriminate saying, asian, chinese, russian make devices function badly. It's not the kind of behaviour the world expects from you professionals. I worked in 11 countries already on different projects. My general opinion is mistakes in product manufacturing and services are unavoidable. It's not the fault of the standard. Non of the emergency battery units worked in our own consulting company office during the big blackout they are human errors. NOT all IEC products are bad. NOT all NEMA products are bad.

 

[jbartos]

Info for foxhoundme (Mechanical) Oct 5, 2003
Visit

http://www.barringer1.com/pdf/lcc_gp.pdf

http://www.mms.gov/tarprojects/356/356AA.pdf

for reference data to which manufacturers' starters may be correlated.
Then, visit

http://www.thomasregister.com

and type Starters: Motor under Product or Service, which will return 131 companies to approach to obtain MBTF, MTTF, MTTR, life-cyle, etc.
Some manufacturers will not reveal these data even if you purchase a starter, not to mention if you do not purchase one. This is how proprietary information can be or can get. I have done some research in these areas. The manufacturers may even consider one to be an "industrial spy." It is not a surprise to me that some postings above relate to other ways to obtain the product quality information, e.g. by word of mouth.

 

[kitha]

GGOSS!
I make this thread to invite you to go to the thread237-73647 by me as your expertise is in VFDs. The reason being I have a project requiring the ASD as explained. Possibly you might know about it as they are your competitors. I haven't received enough comments about it.

 

[PUMPDESIGNER]

afterhrs - Yes, Telemecanique/Square D contactors have worked very well for us, with apparently good overload protection. Every time equipment overload is a problem, there really is a problem, usually with electricians undersizing wire for the length of run. We do not see any motors with heated windings. Consider this however, we set the overload at FLA, and no more, and we NEVER allow overloading pumps, we always trim the impellers to non-overload and no use of Service Factor.

At this moment however we are taking a hard look at AB and Siemens. Not for product quality or problems with contactors. We are looking for smaller circuit breakers. Those Square D Molded Case breakers are truly great breakers, but they are huge. AB now has the Westinghouse breakers which we think are perhaps one of the finest breakers around.

PUMPDESIGNER

 

[GGOSS]

Hello Kitha,

I have had a quick look at Thread237-73647 and the link contained within your post of October 3. As it appears to is off-topic for this thread, I will review the information and respond in the original thread.

Regards,
GGOSS

 

[afterhrs]

Kitha,
1) Read the heading of this thread again.
2) I could care less where it is made, only how well
it works. Please show me where I stated different.
3) Please read more carefully before trying to correct
someone.

Regards,
Afterhrs

 

[afterhrs]

PUMPDESIGNER,
So you like Telemechanique, then I say stick with them if you have had good luck with their product. As you already know, they have not served me well, and I will not use them again. I was not the only to voice this opinion in another thread that you were also a part of. I guess that is why it caught me by surprise.
Electricians, problems, I cant believe it. I would just say make sure you have a copy of NEC table 318,
article 430, and article 670.
I would definitely inspect the wire size before initial start up , even though you shouldn't have to.
I have recently installed some AB circuit breakers, about 8 months ago. Anywhere from .5 to 30 amps. No problems thus far. Not much to go on, but better than nothing I suppose .

Best Regards,
Afterhrs

 

[tobacco]

Hi,

Simply go for Siemens, they are the best world over

 

[ScottyUK]

Pump Designer / Tobacco,

The Westinghouse breakers you refer to, now available from AB, also appear to be the same as the Siemens 3VF range. Good breakers. But who makes them, and who are the two companies engaged in 'badge engineering'?

 

[kitha]

Afterhrs!
Sorry I was not trying to offend you. Only the first part of my comment is applicable to you. The rest is a general comment for everybody. This is very nice forum with lot of educated and experienced people. And we need to maintain that respect. Sorry for any inconvenience to you afterhrs.