Best slab FE package 1

[MHSpurs]

Hi. This is my first post to this great site.

We are currently updating our office software (Irish based) and would like to include a concrete flat slab FE package as part of a new suite. I would greatly appreciate some help in selecting one.

We are trying to avoid overly complicated packages that need to be re learned after 3-4 months of non use. We would probably have 6-7 suitable projects per annum.

Our wish list is:

*Easy import from acad drawings
*Works to British codes
*Easy load application eg drag and drop for point/line loads.
*Effective punching shear checks and long term deflections.
*stepped slab profile
*output to acad.
*Link to and from frame analysis/design package.

Any ideas? The common names I keep coming across are:

Robot
Orion
Ram
Prokon
Sofistik
Strap
Etabs
Stadd
Safe Slab


Finally, is there a page/site that reviews and compares these products?

Many Thanks

MH

 

[MHSpurs]

I have just had a demo of RAM Concept. It seemed quite good. Has anyone any experience of this package.

The one that seems to 'have it all' is robot. Any opinions on this package? I've heard its great but difficult to learn. Is that true?

 

[brooksy3a]

Hi

I have use Orion for FE as it is a complete solution for the whole frame slabs columns walls shea walls, and it has been around for some time.

Autocad input is good, export from FE is not very well developed. Column and wall details can be exported.

RAM is catching up however I hve not had oppertunity to explore how well concept works with the frame analysis suite.

Another option is CADs SMART Modeller EPW/ESA PT.

 

[MHSpurs]

Hi Brooksy3a

thanks for the reply. Its great to hear from someone who has used one of the products.

Does orion allow you to model a steel frame over concrete transfer slab/frame?

Is it much quicker for the analysis and design compared to traditional methods?

Also, does it design the column head punching shear reinforcement?

Did you look at robot? If so, what swung it for Orion?

Thanks again

MH

 

[brooksy3a]

Does orion allow you to model a steel frame over concrete transfer slab/frame? - NO ORION is Concrete only A&D, you can apply the loads, moments etc at the relvant points.

Is it much quicker for the analysis and design compared to traditional methods? - YES

Also, does it design the column head punching shear reinforcement? YES it check punching shear and advise reinforcement area requirements and number of perimeters required. I tend to use orion to check the punching shar and then use BRC? software to design shear rails.

Did you look at robot? If so, what swung it for Orion?
ORION was already available in office when I arrived.
Not really familiar with Robot

I have also dabbled with CADS Smart Modeller which as I recall in its full version ca design in any material steel/concrete/timber.

 

[MHSpurs]

Ok

thanks again.

MH

 

[EvanGr]

Hi MHSpurs

I am currently using safe and etabs.
1. Etabs can analyze slabs but it DOESN'T DESIGN them.
2. Safe designs with BS as well. But the input of the loads is being done manualy (column by column). The auto mesh that it uses is not very accurate so you have to manualy mesh it( something not easy on safe). I personally use etabs to input the loads and the geometry and then I export to safe where I perform analysis and design. This is straightforward and simple. The boring thing is if I have to change back geometry and or loads so I have to update etabs and then again export to safe. Moreover safe doesn't calculate reinforcement for punching shear. I personally made a slab foundation with BS and I saw that your code is extremely conservative in punching shear so you may need a software that calculates reinforcement as well.

p.s. English is not my native language

 

[rapt]

MHSpurs

One of your requirements was long term deflection calculations.

None of these packages will give you anything but a guess at a long term deflection. One tries to allow for cracking, one allows you to nominate a percentage of cracking, the rest use gross-section deflections for short term effects. All use nominal and very inaccurate multipliers for long term effects.

You could make the same guess of a factor to multiply elastic deflections by to get a similar result.

 

[MHSpurs]

hi

thanks for the reply.

we have started to look at ram structural system along with concept flat slab designer.


It is more expensive than the others €15000 approx but seems to be more user friendly.

Have any of you guys used these?

 

[MHSpurs]

Hi

An update to my own mail.

I trialled Ram structural system and it seemed good for very regular buildings and exported easily to concept which I have not quite got to grips with yet.

The structural system did not seem to be too clever for buildings that do not have repetitive floor layouts. It also seems to have problems with columns that are not vertical from one floor to the next. (the project i have in mind has a number of columns on a rake).

I also have a full working version of Robot Millennium for a month. I have just started into this.

This seems to be a good all rounder and does a little bit of everything. I cant figure out though if it does load patterning for live loads ona RC slab.

Can anyone advise on this and on their general opinion of the package and its limitations/ease of use.

Thanks
MH

 

[patswfc]

MHSpurs,

Robot wont do live load pattern loading for slab design.
I dont think that there are any packages that will do this. I was at a presentation last year by the concrete centre, who had arranged for 4 different companies to demonstrate their own software. Robot was one of them. None of these bits of software could do pattern loading. To get around this you have to put the imposed floor loading on as a number of patch loads each in a seperate loadcase, then generate whatever combinations you see fit. Its a bit of a pain but the only way to do it at the moment as far as i am aware. When asked about pattern loading each company said that it was too difficult to tell the software to apply a udl over the whole floor and then for it to generate the correct pattern loading.

There is a publiscation by the concrete centre called how to design rc flat slabs using fea which might be of help/intrest to you.

I use a bit of software called ESA Prima Win which is by a company called SCIA based in Belguim but distributed in the UK by CADS. Its about to be replaced by a new prouduct called ESA PT. Its a general fe analysis package which will let you analysis structures of any geometry including inclined columns and does code checking for steel, concrete and timber members to many different national codes. Its not bad but doesnt seem to be widely used in the UK and with a small user base the support isnt fantastic.
Regards

 

[MHSpurs]

Patswfc

Thanks for the reply.

I heard about the presentation. In fact the Ram concept sales guy claimed that he was the only one to finish the design problem set at the presentation. Is that true? He also went on and on about Robot being the slowest. Again, was that the case?

Did any of the packages demonstrated stand out?

Regarding the Esa Prima Win, being a cads product, can it export rebar to their detailer?

Thanks again

MH

 

[patswfc]

To be honest i cant remember too much about the presentation. It was too long ago and only lasted for 1/2 a day.
They all struggled to do the example in the given time but they were only given 20mins each so thats understandable. None of the products stood out as far as i can remember although some had good little features but then had other featues missing. I would suggest that you try to demo them all and then go for which ever one you find easiest to use. Also make sure that they can handle things that you may encounter like raking columns.

As for the CADS software there are two ways to export the calculated rebar.
1) The programme produces a contour plot of required areas of steel. This can be exported as a dxf file and opened in autocad and placed over the slab to be detailed. Then the detailer can place the required rebar.
2) Inside the programme once the required rebar has been calculated you can detail the element in question and then export this to autocad. However this is very crude and usually requires more work for the detailer to tidy up the drawing.

When we have done it in the past we've used the first option.

Regards

 

[annebai]

patswfc,

Where can I get more information about the presentation?

Thanks,

AD

 

[patswfc]

I'm not sure if you will be able to get anything.
You could try contacting the Concrete Centre (

http://www.concretecentre.com)

who organised the event.
They may have produced a summary regarding the presentation.
Best of Luck

 

[annebai]

Thank you.
AD

 

[prsconsultant]

We have been using RAM CONCEPT & SAFE for years. Both are exceptional. RAMCONCEPT is cheaper than SAFE and has more or less all the features.

 

[MHSpurs]

prs consultant

do you model the whole building in ram or just manually input the loads?

what package do you use for overall stability checks?

Thanks

MH

 

[stressed]

RAMCONCEPT is cheaper than SAFE and has more or less all the features.

I understand from my manager that we buy SAFE for about $2,000US per copy. Is RAM Concept less than that, or even in that general price range? That would be a shocker if that's true. As I understand it, RAM Concept's big strength is PT design and that's why they charge the big $$, whereas SAFE is limited to conventional reinforced slabs and mats. So depends on whether you need PT design. Although limited to conventionally reinforced slabs, unlike one of the above posters, we have had wonderful results with SAFE's automeshing, which is more than I can say about ETABS automesh capabilities, which are more limited. You can have column, wall, and/or surface area loads anywhere you want on SAFE, on or off the gridlines and SAFE automeshes them well. As a bonus, SAFE will also design basemats on soil in addition to design of elevated slabs.

Design strips are easy to define in SAFE, but be aware that you are limited to strips in the X and Y direction with no possibility of diagonal design strips. CSI says the next version of SAFE will correct this, but that has been a long time coming.. so we will see.

SAFE does perform punching shear checks, but it does not account for whether the column is corner, edge, or interior, so it takes worst case (conservative). Also, you can't specify stud rails in SAFE, if you wanted to use those to help with punching shear. Also, strangely SAFE does pattern loading automatically if you're able to use one of their template models. But if not using one of the templates (which is usually the case), you will have to assign pattern loads separately for multiple live load cases and do your own load combinations manually.

One thing that does work very well is the interface between ETABS and SAFE. It brings across slab properties, including openings and drop panels, beams, as well as loads and even column sizes for punching shear checks. That is an area where I have to give CSI kudos, as I have not seen another structural frame program/slab design program interface as well as ETABS and SAFE. You model the slabs in ETABS for 3D analysis and design and export everything into SAFE. One of the big reasons we use SAFE is because ETABS is our workhorse 3D design program. For lateral load and shear wall design in particular, there is nothing on the market that I have seen which can touch ETABS.

If PT is not an issue, I suggest taking a look at ETABS and SAFE. Both offer British code design, but you'll have to decide for yourself whether or not the design implementation is adequate as we use ACI and AISC.

 

[MHSpurs]

Hi

Thanks for the replies.

I have found all comments useful.

From my own use of demos and from a lot of research heres what I have come up with. If you can add to these or correct me if i am in error i think a host of engineers can benefit.

I understand its all subjective, however, for my mind the whole software industry is too cloak and dagger. So lets share some experience of these programs.

I'll start. Again, please remember that it is only opinion based on use to date and some of it may be inadequately informed.



Robot - powerful package, integrates steel, conc and timber design in FE package, reasonably priced but difficult to learn. Does not do punching shear checks. The only all singing, all dancing package that I came across with a good 'undo' command.

Orion - powerful package, only does concrete, expensive but not too difficult to learn. Found the sales guys very pushy.

Ram Concept - powerful package, can be used stand alone or as add on to their structural system (which i did not like), expensive but not too difficult to learn. Deals with punching shear very well. Sales guys were very agressive.

Prokon - good for simple problems. cheap. not good for large/difficult slabs. Did not seem to produce shear values for FE slabs. Strange I know!?!

Sofistik - only tried the old version from CADS. was very prone to errors and was difficult to use. not sure on pricing. I believe there is a new product launched this year. anyone know about this?

Strap - not tested.

Etabs - not sure this is readily available/used in the UK.

Stadd - seems to have a lot of problems from what i read on other blogs so did not carry out a review.

Safe Slab - Good product (demo version). Reasonably priced. Problems reported on blogs with mesh generation, again not sure its available easily in the UK.

Cads Smart moddeler - going to see a demo tomorrow. will report later.

Integer - Good ACAD interface. Crashed machine when runing basic slab (not sure if it was my prob or theirs!). Easy to input data. Dont remember it doing the punching shear checks.

Anyway thats just my 2 cents worth. I hope anyone who has better experience using these packages, and others can help/add to this.