BIM (Building Information Modeling)

[DaveVikingPE]

I've been tapped to lead my organization into implementing BIM. Exciting, eh?

I did not want to post this thread on the Microstation or AutoCAD forums because I want the opinions of structural engineers on:

I say that BIM is CAD. That is, it's computer-aided design.

 

[JAE]

Dave,

Everything I've gathered (I was "tapped" like you) is that BIM is really a huge database that happens to be linked into a form of CADD.

So instead of a 3D model of lines and elements that happen to have information tagged to them, BIM is really a huge gathering of information that has the capacity to display that information graphically.

It also uses IFC's which are essentially rules regulating how the software organizes that data such that a large array of other types of software (such as structural programs, cost estimating programs, facility mangement programs, etc.) can utilize the data.

If you are old enough, you remember how the first CADD programs came out and all were not compatible with each other? With the IFC's there supposedly won't be this problem.

Here's a similar thread I started a while ago: thread507-144360

 

[DaveVikingPE]

JAE,

Have you actually used it and "extracted" 2D plans and such? I'm interested in "full blown" use of BIM. I'm interested in anecdotes, successes, failures, etc.

Anyone else?

 

[JAE]

We have not taken the plunge. But I've read where a number of firms "out there" are using it. Mostly they are single discipline Architectural firms. I do know that many of the A/E firms in our city are starting to move in that direction. Also, I think that Walter P. Moore in Houston is also getting there.

 

[DaveVikingPE]

My organization will take the plunge...

I am aware that Louisville District, US Army Corps of Engineers has taken the plunge and rather successfully, too.

One thing I've found out it does is force a "lock" on a scope of work.

 

[jen4950]

BIM is a fancy way of saying Object Based Drafting. You can take it one step further and attach the analysis and detailing models/agorithms to it; but the basic idea is you aren't drawing lines anymore.

A line is not just a line with such and such lineweight; it is a W14x22, Grade 50 steel, with 22 Shear Studs and 1" of camber. Internally, we have had some gung-ho people develop our standard profile so the transition will be moderately less painful; and I am fully confidentif you don't pick it up quick, you'll be left in the dust.

I have several friends at WPM, and they are at about the same stage we are; and that stage is the early/mid learning curve; preparing for our clients that are requiring BIM across the board by 2007.

 

[jen4950]

Locking the scope of work sounds like a God-send; we try to limit scope creep; it's the clients and contractors that squeeze it out of you.

 

[Ron]

This process has been evolving over the last 15 years or so. It is similar to some of the Building Management Information Systems that were first developed for roofs and other pieces and parts. It can be taken to any level you want, but essentially is an object based database.

The way we have implemented this in the past has been through a GIS based system intertwined with CAD and other graphics. There are several systems on the market, ArcSoft has one that is relatively easy to use and can incorporate all sorts of data from bar codes to graphics to photos to CAD.

The Corps of Engineers developed a system called "Builder" which is like their "Roofer" and "Paver" programs.

School Districts love this stuff....helps them keep track of all sorts of things.

 

[DaveVikingPE]

Limiting "scope creep" is where the Project Managers really earn their money. If they're not successful, they lose money - if more bosses realized this, endeavors like BIM would have a high success rate.

Anyway... My vision is to keep BIM engineer-oriented, rather than architect-oriented. That is, while I support the architect as "master builder" and my job is to capture their vision in my structural design, a BIM effort - that is, a team effort - has to be dominated by good engineers: and I want an architect who thinks like an engineer (we have two of them on my team, we're blessed).

I also have a vision (I have visions...), that I'm sure we all share, of a BIM project going from the charette to O&M and back again when time for renovation comes.

What I see as the toughest obstacle is forcing those in project management to embrace this technology (in the sense that they'll pay for it) and let us work things out. Some of the PMs, those whose last engineering project got them a "C" in senior design, automatically see BIM as just another widget to sub out and check off a milestone. Granted, that's good for the subs, but then someone has to review the BIM - or do they? The final product that's been paid for is a set of plans and specifications, how those were produced doesn't matter to the bottom line.

Now, if we engineers are going to be "faster, better, smarter" how can we justify spending the several months of intense activity learning BIM to the point where we are good at it, when there's some specialty company that already is the master of BIM? It's hard enough to justify the need to enforce CAD standards (who cares? everything is black and white in the end!), this BIM stuff might be a wash...

As a structural, the idea of getting in on the charette is appealing because I can "sell" the customer (and the architects) on framing options early, instead of at the 35% stage - when I find out that certain framing isn't appealing, and I didn't quite know that because the charette report was never finalized...

 

[JAE]

Dave, just being picky here, but I don't think you spend months learning BIM. BIM is not necessarily a piece of software. Its more like a conceptual method that many different software products support. Yes, we have to learn the software, but we as engineers are always forced to learn new methods, codes, specs, and electronic tools.

And I tend to believe that BIM is not an "architectural" or "structural" thing either. Its a full range concept of integrating all the different disciplines and uses of BIM into one model - one where multiple programs can use.

 

[DaveVikingPE]

JAE,

How long do you think it should/would it take for a BIM team to get up to speed where they can create BIM products? What I'm thinking about is that the BIM team needs to get their personal dynamics in order, learn the software (we're a Microstation shop and with V8 and nothing else, we can't create a BIM from which we'd extract plans, etc.), and at the same time keeping our plates clean?

 

[archeng59]

is the BIM set up in AutoCAD or other cad system? or is it a 3D wireframe created in STAAD or similar analysis program? whatever the system the BIM is created in, who creates the initial database? what happens if the initial "building" is created by an architect that provides a database where the dimensions are not "exact"? a 2D orthographic drawing doesn't have to be "exact" as long as the dimensions are correctly shown on the hard copy plot. If structural engineers share electronic drawings with others outside the design team, what happens when the fabricator and contractor get a database where there are dimensional/labeling errors that they want to blame the design team for scheduling issues/change orders? we would still issue sealed and signed drawings for permitting and construction. if there is a conflict between the BIM database and the drawings, which controls? What are the liabilities for structural engineers sharing electronic data?

 

[jen4950]

I consider AutoCAD 2006 a BIM, and Revit is clearly BIM.

 

[JAE]

archeng59 - I think you are asking a lot of the questions that all of us (architects, engineers, builders, owners, gov't agencies) will have to ask in the near future. I don't think the question is whether we move into BIM, but rather how do we do it?

DaveV - good point - the culture in which architects and engineers work, and the processes through which the communicate their design needs to each other, is important. I think having a single file to work from will automatically deal with a lot of the coordination issues in that everyone works from the same file.

One thing to note here is that there are some firms who have used a form of BIM for some years....I'm thinking of what limited info I know about a large power plant design firm here in the midwest US - they developed their own in-house CADD program in which each discipline works ont he same 3D model and the software eventually spits out thousands of shop drawings once the design is "complete".

I've always been a reluctant cheerleader for business fads....such as Total Quality Management, - but this seems to be a situation where our design industry is going in a certain direction, and we're being led by the software capabilities that are coming into being due to higher memory and faster computers.

 

[DaveVikingPE]

All: good questions. This is the kind of discussion I'm looking for. As a famous person recently said, "you don't know what you don't know..."

JAE: right on about fads.

archeng59: Great points. I'm going to steal them for a memo... Seriously, I've had my share of architectural drawings whose dimensions were inexact and required iterative rectification. If I'm going to be the "BIM Manager" for my organization, that's the kind of thing I will squash by right of force.

jen4950: Revitt looks really good. So naturally, I can't use it because we're a Bentley shop. And Bentley has purchased STAAD, RAM and has a really neat piping program, too.

As JAE mentioned, my reading of BIM origins is that it's been done in the manufacturing engineering world for quite a while. And that sure would translate to plant design, since there's so many processes and processing things that have to fit in the right place.

What my group will be using is a Bentley super-suite of products: triforma, lots of other stuff I've never used, and even in-roads (frankly, I like it that the civils will be involved). There's a lot of potential for the BIM effort - that I won't confuse with the project formulation effort - to be engineer-heavy, allowing me to mold the architects into architect-engineers instead of artistes. I also am excited about the idea of "levereging technology" such that the PMs will give me a lot of money and get out of my way.

 

[JAE]

DaveViking -

Your phrase would be a great idea for a T-shirt or a hat!

iterative rectification
the art of
redeeming the architect
in your life

 

[dik]

Dave... you might include BOMA info at the same time... just to make things clearer <G>...

Dik

 

[archeng59]

most of the people I hear pushing BIM are fabricators and contractors. is it in our best interests as structural engineers? how does it make our job easier and more efficient? BIM appears to be geared toward reducing the work load of the suppliers, fabricators and contractors.

 

[DaveVikingPE]

At first it's going to make our lives harder. Mainly because we'll have to convince the managers that engineers aren't being pushed out of a job now that we've got this nifty BIM stuff.

More to come...