I could use some advise on blending additives into base motor oil for racing applications. I will be purchasing standard 5W30 motor oil and would like to blend a recipe of 1200ppm ZDDP, an anti-foaming agent and a friction reducer. Can someone tell me the correct temperature the oil needs to be before blending the additives and anything else we need to know. Thank you guys for the help!
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Blending Additives into Semi-Synthetic Oil 4
- Thread starter PGS22
- Start date
SuperSalad
Chemical
First of all, I suggest against adding any additives to the oil since you will more than likely compromise the design of the product. I wrote a FAQ in this forum about this very subject a few years ago: Should I put <insert questionable additive name> into my oil?
Unless you are planning on testing the oil's antiwear, antifoam, and friction performance after dosing it with whatever these materials are, you will have no idea if these things helped (unlikely), hurt (somewhat likely), or did nothing at all (most likely).
If you require higher performance, buy something better than "a standard 5W-30" and skip the additives altogether.
If you insist on using the additives, it depends on the additives you are using. Different ones may have different application instructions.
Andrew H.
Unless you are planning on testing the oil's antiwear, antifoam, and friction performance after dosing it with whatever these materials are, you will have no idea if these things helped (unlikely), hurt (somewhat likely), or did nothing at all (most likely).
If you require higher performance, buy something better than "a standard 5W-30" and skip the additives altogether.
If you insist on using the additives, it depends on the additives you are using. Different ones may have different application instructions.
- A 1200 PPM ZDDP additive is 99.88% base oil, so it will mix with very little agitation at any temperature
- Anti-foam is likely either silicone based or polymer based; both will need to be mixed a bit, but temperature shouldn't matter
- There are a lot of different "friction reducers"; more information would be needed to gauge its mixing properties
Andrew H.
- Thread starter
- #3
Thanks for the reply. I appreciate the advise. I read your thread on the additives and I see where your coming from but I have a very specific application that I'm trying to fill. Basically it's a racing oil for small 4-stroke air cooled engines with a splash type oiling system, not pressurized. Maybe a coupl e of other questions you could help with.
1. The anti-foam is needed for obvious reasons on a splashed oiling system. What would you recommend and at what ratio ?
2. I was going to start testing the friction modifier using liquid PTFE or Teflon. ratio?
Thanks
1. The anti-foam is needed for obvious reasons on a splashed oiling system. What would you recommend and at what ratio ?
2. I was going to start testing the friction modifier using liquid PTFE or Teflon. ratio?
Thanks
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1
- #4
SuperSalad
Chemical
1. Extra anti-foam is unlikely to do much. To pass any API specs, the anti-foam performance has to be pretty good, and above the amount usually added doesn't improve that performance. Either type would work pretty much equally in your type of mechanism though.
2. PTFE doesn't help with engine friction. It doesn't bond to the surface in any way and therefore get's pushed out as soon as any surfaces come together with any reasonable force. Your limiting factor will still be the oil's film strength and the reducing additives already in the oil which do interact with the surfaces.
As for ratios it is all a guessing game. Anywhere between 0.01% and 99.99% might be effective. You'd need to know the concentration of the additive and how it might change the performance of your oil. Too much ZDDP is very bad for engines, too much anti-foam does nothing extra, extra friction modifiers might do something but they have a very serious issue with producing diminishing returns above certain levels even if they are chosen correctly considering the rest of the oil's formula.
Andrew H.
2. PTFE doesn't help with engine friction. It doesn't bond to the surface in any way and therefore get's pushed out as soon as any surfaces come together with any reasonable force. Your limiting factor will still be the oil's film strength and the reducing additives already in the oil which do interact with the surfaces.
As for ratios it is all a guessing game. Anywhere between 0.01% and 99.99% might be effective. You'd need to know the concentration of the additive and how it might change the performance of your oil. Too much ZDDP is very bad for engines, too much anti-foam does nothing extra, extra friction modifiers might do something but they have a very serious issue with producing diminishing returns above certain levels even if they are chosen correctly considering the rest of the oil's formula.
Andrew H.
Actual oil companies have billion dollar budgets for figuring this out. Do you really think you are going to do this properly on your kitchen stove?
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1
- #6
TugboatEng
Marine/Ocean
Keep in mind that calcium and boron based additives are being used for anti-wear instead of ZDDP so less ZDDP doesn't imply less anti-wear.
If you want the good stuff see if you can get your hands on some new old stock Delo 477 CFO or other chlorinated engine oils. They have been outlawed for quite some time but I think they would be ideal for a splash lube engine.
If you want the good stuff see if you can get your hands on some new old stock Delo 477 CFO or other chlorinated engine oils. They have been outlawed for quite some time but I think they would be ideal for a splash lube engine.
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1
- #7
bentwings2
Mechanical
A number of years ago it in the streetrod world was popular to ad various “zinc” additives to standard motor oil to preserve the flat tappet cam and lifters. I did this successfully for some time. Each oil change on my streetrod I would cut the oil filter apart just to look inside. For quite awhile they were just oil soaked messes. Then recently I noted a slight drop in oil pressure on a very hot day when we’re cruising on the highway. It was oil change time anyway so shortly thereafter I brought the car into the shop for my oil change while the oil was draining I cut the filter open. Surprise. This time the element is packed full of the black additive! I had some Brad Penn off road oil that has specific additives for the flat tappet cams so I decided to try it on the streetrod with no extra additives. If the cam went flat I’d just replace it with a roller lifter cam.
So after another 5000 miles the motor is running very well, oil pressure had not changed at all even with a very fast long highway run on a very hot day with the AC running. I cut this filter apart and it was just an oily mess as earlier ones. Same brand of filter.
So from that day on I just bite the bullet on oil that is twice as expensive. Turns out the cost of an oil change is within a couple dollars anyway. So hot rod oil for the hot streetrod is the rule now.
As noted above oil producers spend millions on developing oils for today’s use.
I would not hesitate a moment to use it in your application. As individuals we just are not the expert application of chemicals engineers that oil engineers are. No matter if you are a PhD. Experience counts here. You have to use their expertise. I’m not the only one who has found this. Some haven’t read the results and have had serious consequences with home brews.
So after another 5000 miles the motor is running very well, oil pressure had not changed at all even with a very fast long highway run on a very hot day with the AC running. I cut this filter apart and it was just an oily mess as earlier ones. Same brand of filter.
So from that day on I just bite the bullet on oil that is twice as expensive. Turns out the cost of an oil change is within a couple dollars anyway. So hot rod oil for the hot streetrod is the rule now.
As noted above oil producers spend millions on developing oils for today’s use.
I would not hesitate a moment to use it in your application. As individuals we just are not the expert application of chemicals engineers that oil engineers are. No matter if you are a PhD. Experience counts here. You have to use their expertise. I’m not the only one who has found this. Some haven’t read the results and have had serious consequences with home brews.
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1
- #8
what problems do you actually experience with the engine that makes you think some extra additive may solve them?
a antiwear additive may reduce wear in the valve actuation mechanism, but if you do have sufficient life already, more additive will not be of much use, although most of them double as a anti-oxidant
antifoam additives are tricky. sure, they break down foam but also they make air release properties usually a lot worse. you might thus end up without air bubbles on top of the oil and a lot of air bubbles within the oil.....not what you want to lubricate bearings with
friction modifiers only work in say the left part of the Stribeck curve, where there is mixed or boundary lubrication. thus, they will only work within the first revolutions of the engine after startup, and maybe also when shutting down. as long as you will have sufficient rpm they will have no effect, assuming that full film lubrication is present
as already mentioned by others, adding additives of unknown composition into a fully formulated oil of also unknown composition, is rather risky because, unless you have admission to suitable test equipment, the changes in performance will not be easily known.
a antiwear additive may reduce wear in the valve actuation mechanism, but if you do have sufficient life already, more additive will not be of much use, although most of them double as a anti-oxidant
antifoam additives are tricky. sure, they break down foam but also they make air release properties usually a lot worse. you might thus end up without air bubbles on top of the oil and a lot of air bubbles within the oil.....not what you want to lubricate bearings with
friction modifiers only work in say the left part of the Stribeck curve, where there is mixed or boundary lubrication. thus, they will only work within the first revolutions of the engine after startup, and maybe also when shutting down. as long as you will have sufficient rpm they will have no effect, assuming that full film lubrication is present
as already mentioned by others, adding additives of unknown composition into a fully formulated oil of also unknown composition, is rather risky because, unless you have admission to suitable test equipment, the changes in performance will not be easily known.
- Thread starter
- #9
Aren't you pretty much changing the oil after every race? I would think that alone would deal with the biggest issue, which is what winds up in the oil from "normal" operation of the engine during racing.
TTFN (ta ta for now)
I can do absolutely anything. I'm an expert! faq731-376 forum1529 Entire Forum list
TTFN (ta ta for now)
I can do absolutely anything. I'm an expert! faq731-376 forum1529 Entire Forum list
- Thread starter
- #11
bentwings2
Mechanical
IRstuff,
I now have a big mess, I not only spilled my coffee but I burned my morning toast and bacon after watching that video..
I now have a big mess, I not only spilled my coffee but I burned my morning toast and bacon after watching that video..
At least, you're not seeing either those mutually perpendicular transparent or red green lines
TTFN (ta ta for now)
I can do absolutely anything. I'm an expert! faq731-376 forum1529 Entire Forum list
TTFN (ta ta for now)
I can do absolutely anything. I'm an expert! faq731-376 forum1529 Entire Forum list
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