cable colour? 4

[mtchufi]

Dear all,
I ve a little simple problem with my installation.
As I’ve learn in collage and read some reference book, the green yellow cable is only used for the grounding cable.
What I find here is, the green yellow cable is used for phase. The Distribution cable color is yellow, blue, black, and green yellow. The contractor was connected the green yellow, black, and yellow to phase, and the blue to neutral. The ground is pulled sparately by a rope cupper conductor.The installation is 380 VAC 50 Hz, 3 phase+N.
My Question is,
1. Does any standard or rule that allowed the green yellow connected to phase?
2. How to Connect the system with that cable colour?
I can’t complain to the installator as I don’t have any reference.
I would thanks if any one could give me any PDF file on reference.

Regards,
MTCHUFI

 

[ScottyUK]

In Europe, the green/yellow colour is used solely and exclusively for a protective earth conductor.

I have seen Red/Yellow/Blue+CPC used for single-phase circuits where two-way switching is used, for lighting control for example. I've not seen the colour combination you describe in the UK

Paraphrased from UK Regulations, BS7671:1992, Regulation 514-06-01,

Protective conductor: Green/yellow

Phase of 1ph circuit: Red (may be yellow or blue if it forms part large multi-phase installation)
Neutral of 1ph circuit: Black
Phase 'R' of 3ph circuit: Red
Phase 'Y' of 3ph circuit: Yellow
Phase 'B' of 3ph circuit: Blue

Functional Earth: Cream

The rest of the info. relates to DC circuits and is not relevant to your problem.

Your installation would not meet the UK requirements, and by implication, would probably be an illegal installation if it were challenged in a UK court. I say 'probably' because it is possible that the installer might prove that it was reasonable not to follow the requirements of BS7671, but I can't honestly imagine how he might do that.

 

[killemall]

You have not said where the installation is, and requirements may differ in other locations.

In Australian standards, Green/Yellow must be exlusively used for earth. If you see a green/yellow wire, you should be able to safely assume that it is not live. It would be illegal to use it for anything else. Any other colours are not so strict, but green/yellow MUST be Earth.

If you require documentation, you will need to refer to your local standards.

 

[alehman]

In the U.S., ground is always solid green and green/yellow is reserved for isolated grounds for sensitive loads. Green or green/yellow is universl for ground and should never be used for a phase.

U.S. uses black/red/blue for 208/120, black/red for 240/120 single-phase, and yellow/orange/brown for 480/277.

Neutral is white or gray.

 

[mtchufi]

Thanks to all,
That’s right. I’m not work in UK or US, I work in Indonesia.
Here the law for electrical installation is very soft.
Every one who have little known about installation may become and electrical contractor.
Without license or something else. It’s strange, but it’s true. When I complain about the installation, they just ask back to me how to connect with the color like that. I Cant give any suggestion because all the installation that has been installed since the first is using the green yellow as phase. If I’ve to change, It seems that I make a new factory. It’s impossible.
I also can’t find any local rule that allowed that way. Just in my thinking, my be they used that way for price reason. If they use the yellow as the ground, they have to buy the cable with 5 core color: Red, blue, yellow, black, and green yellow. It’s little bit expensive.
We have to use the neutral for lighting installation.
Now, I know that the Installation is wrong. Extremely, I find that installation in more than one factory. More than half factory that I’ve ever seen here. Any way, nothing I can do, all should be running.
One Question that I don’t find the answer is, how to connect the cable with four color combination black, blue, yellow and green yellow for the installation 3P+N, grounded pulled with copper wire separately.
I really need the answer for my next other company that I could start all the installation allowed the international standard.
Once again, all above is strange,… but it’s real.

Regards
mtchufi

 

[killemall]

The reason is most cable will come with a green/yellow for earthing. For a 3 phase motor, usually a neutral is not required, so use 4 core cable (3C+E). If you don't require the earth, then this core would be wasted.

If you have no rules, you could use the green/yellow for the Neutral, as it should be the same potential, ie. neutral is tied to earth at some point (MEN system). Although this is bad practice, it would save money.

So for an installation requireing a neutral, you should be useing a 5 core cable (4C+E).

In answer to your question, If you must use 3C+E, use black, blue and yellow as your 3 phases, and green/yellow as your neutral.

I hope this answers your question.

 

[ScottyUK]

killemall,

I originally thought your moniker indicated that you were a fan of Metallica in the mid-1980's. But now I see that it comes from your engineering design philosphy!

The convention is that green / yellow is exclusively reserved for protective earth function ONLY. What you have said is technically correct - you could use any colours you wanted for the earth, neutral or phase conductors - after all the copper that conducts the electricity is the same stuff. But conventions exist to prevent this sort of thing becoming confusing, and ultimately dangerous. What you are advocating presents a safety hazard to anyone working on this equipment at a later date, and is at best very bad practice, at worst could land the designer or installer in court.

 

[killemall]

My answer is to someone who is not using rules and wants to know the safest way to break them.

I am by no means condoning this sort of behaviour, I am just stating the facts. Mainly that if you were to use the green/yellow for anything other than earth, it should be neutral as an MEN system neutral and earth are technically the same, therefore not live.

I think it is also understood in Indonesia and many asian countries, that you would never assume that green/yellow is used as earth.

killemall is my gaming name by the way. BF1942.

 

[jbartos]

Suggestion: Following color code in electrical installations has numerous practical conveniences and enables better safety.
Visit

http://www.iec.ch

for international electrical standards at "Public Information and Media Enquiries"

 

[busbar]

Er, alehman: “yellow/orange/brown for 480/277”? Someone's going to give you flak about that. ;-)

 

[alehman]

Busbar - do you like brown/orange/yellow better?

 

[mtchufi]

Killemall,
Your suggestion is nearly the answer what I need, but It would me more complex, because the common convention here is used the blue color as the neutral, It would give some more problem here.
Jbartos,. I try to check at IEC website but I couldn’t find the page I needed. Could you give me the URL link so I can click directly?
So, my current conclusion is: I Cant use that color combination cable for the installation system 3P+N.
I wish this case could be cleared as this very helpful for practical in south East Asia country.
I give 110 percent to all your suggestion.

Thanks
mtchufi

 

[jbartos]

Suggestion: Visit

http://www.iec.ch/helpline/contactus/contactus_entry.htm

and ask them a question.

 

[alehman]

I think IEC 60446 is the applicable standard.

See also-

http://www.iee.org/Publish/WireRegs/CableCol.cfm

http://groups.google.com/groups?q=I...30723.1610.109247snz@lyons.demon.co.uk&rnum=7

 

[mtchufi]

sallute!
I've succesfully open and downloaded the link above.
Thanks for your help.
case closed,(any one have Idea, still welcome)

Regards
Mtchufi

 

[jbartos]

Suggestion: Visit

http://www.iec.ch/cgi-bin/getcorr.pl/yab/iec60446-cor1{ed3.0}b.pdf?file=iec60446-cor1{ed3.0}b.pdf

for a correction

 

[mtchufi]

I come again,
Now I have a practical problem connection with case above.
I just Installed my new machine, (from Japan).
The Vendor ask me to connect the anconing panel control with the Green yellow as the Ground (as standard rule).
But all in my Sub distribution panel (SDP), the green yellow is connected to phase (R).
So, Now in my distribution panel special for my new machine, the green yellow is connected to Ground. and for the other machine, the green yellow is still connected to phase (R). Is it funny? No, its real..
any comment please welcome.

 

[jbartos]

Suggestion: Normally, it is better to follow standards of the Client rather than to impose your practices on the Client, since the Client is actually the boss. It has been like that for thousands of years and it will probably continue for long time.

 

[ScottyUK]

Hi mtchufi,

The mess you are describing is the reason why standards exist. If everyone follows them, it prevents the unenviable position you now find yourself in.

If your country has any standards for wiring, it would be best to try to follow them. That way, if a problem arises through non-conformity with the wiring standards, your equipment is wired correctly, and the distribution system is wrong. If there are no standards available, follow your client's requests as jB has suggested.

Good luck.

 

[mtchufi]

Thanks, Jbartos/Scottyuk
I 've same idea with you, and I connected as what the vendors ask.
I put a large size banner of Warning letter/Notasion in the sub distribution panel, so every one who will work with this panel know that the connection inside is not standard and would pay more attention..

Regards
Mtchufi