Calling it a day....but at what time?

[ooox]

Just trying to gauge what others do here.

I often find myself finishing meetings/site visits and debating whether I should go back to the office or just call it a day. I live about 30 minutes journey from my office, my working hours are 8.30-5pm. If my journey back to the office will mean I get there at 4.00pm I usually just call it a day and head home.

If it's a Friday, well, thats another story...

 

[jmw]

Not everyone can be trusted to work responsibly and productively if they can set their own hours. So in many an office no one gets the freedom and letting one person have the freedom and others not leads to all sorts of other problems.

Then again, it is easier to measure hours (and contract for) worked than productivity.

I used to be rather cavalier about my hours. That is, with a journey to work that could take half an hour on a good day, usually took an hour and could some times take two or more, if I was late, so what. I would always be there long after I should be and work from home when I got back.

But. Others are religiously punctual. They see time kepping as the virtue, not what they do with the time they are at the office.
They resent people who make their own hours.

The brown nosers know just wen the boss arrives so they are there before him (by minutes) and they leave just after him.
They are alert to the arrival of their competitors and will use every opportunity to draw this to the boss's attention. Usually, they will say "Oh look, there's X. Overslept again." Not, "Traffic maust have been bad today for X to be arriving only now."

They spread dissent amongst others.

So, when you are legitimately away from the office and the opportunity to redress the balance a bit occurs, take it. Within reason.



JMW

http://www.ViscoAnalyser.com

 

[maddocks]

Like a lot of you, if I'm at a meeting that ends at 3, I will often just go home instead of going back into the office for a short session.

However, this 2 hour advantage to me is often weighed by hours in airports, sundays on the vpn, doing process runs and reports into late evenings. As well, my blackberry is always on and I often answer emails in the evenings. Given the flexibility of our system, the hours always end up with me doing much more than the prescribed 40 hours/week. If you tie me to the 8-5 schedule, then you can not expect me to do weekend and evening work and answer emails on my time. Quid pro quo.

 

[Neubaten]

JLSeagull, I'm not an expert on US legal system, but I'd say that timesheet fraud is not a "crime", it is breach of contract. In the worst case it could be an infraction, or the US equivalent term.

When your company asks you for unpaid overtime, does not pay for work-related education or asks you to do work that is not contemplated in your contract it is the same situation, and not a lot of employees turns to scaremonging and accuses the company of "crime".

 

[PeterStock]

When your work is paid for by the goverment, then timesheet fraud is a crime. The same may apply do work billed to other customers.

Peter Stockhausen
Senior Design Analyst (Checker)
Infotech Aerospace Services

http://www.infotechpr.net

 

[Neubaten]

Yep, that is true in the case of the government jobs.

Not so sure about fraud in billed hours if you work for a company, because I understand you put your hours in your timesheet, and then your company bills them to the customer.

If you inflate your hours, then you are acting against your contract with your company.

I mean, legally there's nothing that binds you, as a worker, with your company's customer, unless you have signed it specifically. Am I wrong?

 

[patprimmer]

Whoever exaggerates the hours has committed fraud.

By definition, fraud is "theft by deception"

Lying about hours is deception.

Getting accepting pay as a result of that deception is theft.

That seems exceptionally straight forward to me.

Have I ever done it, yes

Have you ever done it, yes

It is expected and often overlooked to some extent and may be part of a give and take arrangement, yes

It may be part of a retaliation, or an evening of score, but that does not change what it is.

Regards
Pat
See FAQ731-376 for tips on use of eng-tips by professional engineers &

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[SomptingGuy]

We minions have swipe cards to record our hours, so I can tell within a minute whether I'm above or below my 7.5 Hr/Day monthly average. However, there's no way the clockings can record if I'm adding value or adding coffee.


- Steve

 

[Neubaten]

OK, Pat, you are talking from your ethical point of view.

Timesheet fraud (in non-public jobs), from a legal point of view, is not the same as theft, whatever our opinion might be.

As an example, I assume lying for you is ethically wrong, but you can lie in front of a jury to protect your innocence and it's not legally wrong (at least in Europe and the US)

 

[MacGyverS2000]

but you can lie in front of a jury to protect your innocence and it's not legally wrong

Uhm, that's called perjury, and it's illegal for sure.

You are only allowed to lie about facts that will have no affect on the outcome of a case. For example, if you were asked what type of pants you were wearing when you witnessed a murder, telling the jury you were in your underwear, however false, is not perjury. If you want to protect your innocence, you'll need to take the Fifth.


Dan - Owner

http://www.Hi-TecDesigns.com

 

[Neubaten]

No, in almost every civilized country it is not perjury if it has the finality of protecting your own innocence.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nemo_tenetur_se_detegere

 

[MacGyverS2000]

No, in almost every civilized country it is not perjury if it has the finality of protecting your own innocence.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nemo_tenetur_se_detegere

Latin for "right to remain silent"... the right to remain silent is not the same as a right to lie under oath, and I fail to see how anyone can make that kind of connection. The right to remain silent would be much closer to taking the Fifth.

Dan - Owner

http://www.Hi-TecDesigns.com

 

[JLSeagull]

Many contractors perform work for the government. For government contracts, whistle blowers are protected and may be compensated for exposing false claims such as time sheet fraud. Such employers likely establish their time reporting policies to be consistent with the governmental requirements. Search the web for "whistle blower" or "qui tam" lawyer. Some people earn their income by exposing time sheet fraud.

You may have the right to remain silent during an interrogation. It is better to avoid such issues by properly reporting time charges - regardless of governmental contracts.

 

[Neubaten]

Yes, it is.

 

[ewh]

It is what?
Is this turning into a Python sketch?

"Good to know you got shoes to wear when you find the floor." - [small]Robert Hunter[/small]

 

[FrenchCAD]

you guys oversea are really questionning about this matter. in my company, as long as I do -at minima- my 40 paid hours a week, no matter if it is 5 x 8 or any other arrangement. so I for sure can leave at 3 on monday, long as I put the 2 missing hours anywhere else in my week.

And even if I perform only 39 or less hours this week or another, I do so many unpaid overtime hours that my boss could and would not tell me anything.

Cyril Guichard
Defense Program Manager
Belgium

 

[maddocks]

Well said, Frenchcad - this is exactly the professional approach that we use with our staff. If one of my guys wants to take friday afternoon off, it's his professional responsibility to make up the time accordingly. Same as if one of us needs to take a construction inspector's call during sunday evening dinner.

 

[MechEng2005]

Of course, by Pat's defination, if I fail to mark down my time on the weekend spent answering a 2 minute phone call from a customer, I would be committing "theft by deception".

Should I also include the time on the phone when calling in sick for the day?

Is it only "theft" if it's time I'm getting paid for? That would make it easier to understand, since ducking out without the 40 hours in the contract is time I'm technically getting paid for. However, it leaves employees with the bad deal, as any addtional time beyond 40 hours required is not "theft" by the company, unless theft can be applied to the employee's free time.

By that standard, marking down anytime not actually worked is "theft" and failing to mark down extra time is irrelevant. The issue of working non-normal hours is still ambiguous though. Am I paid my salary exclusively for the 9-5 or is it paid for the 40 hours, at whatever time those 40 hours might occur?

-- MechEng2005

 

[patprimmer]

MechEng2005

Read my definition again.

Fraud involves BOTH theft AND deception, NOT EITHER theft OR deception.

Neubaten

What have you been smoking or sniffing or whatever.

Regards
Pat
See FAQ731-376 for tips on use of eng-tips by professional engineers &

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[Neubaten]

Oh, sorry, I'm OK now.

Timesheet fraud is not only theft by deception, assault on property and armed robbery (if you hold a pen sharp enough when signing your sheet).

It is, above it all, a serious crime. It is prosecuted and punished in a public execution by beheading.

I'm obviously confusing my own moral views on the subject with legality, but it doesn't matter since I scare people.

 

[patprimmer]

Obviously something real potent.

Regards
Pat
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