Can temperatures produce zinc fumes in the Galvanized Steel Zinc-Plated Feuerhand Hurricane Lantern? 5

[Pantomath]

Hello Community,

I am in no way knowledgeable in metals and metallurgy so I am seeking out my answers. The bulk of my current knowledge has been obtained by googling, yet a fundamental answer that I am seeking for cannot be found. I seek my answer now here, in this post.

I want to purchase the Feuerhand Hurricane Lantern 276 Zinc-Plated (kerosene fuelled) which can be found on Feuerhand's main website and further details are there

https://shop.feuerhand.de/feuerhand_en/sturmlaternen/feuerhand-276-verzinnt.html

.

I am able to purchase this product from a local distributor. It is made of galvanized steel which I understand it means that the base metal is steel and the exterior is based on zinc. Galvanizing a product means to apply a thin coating of zinc to a thicker base metal. There are multiple methods such as Hot-Dip Galvanizing, Pre-Galvanizing and Electrogalvanizing. Zinc is used because it is anti-corrosive.

I have learned that welding galvanized steel over a certain temperature causes toxic fumes. For example, hot-dip galvanized steel recommended maximum temperature for long-term, continuous exposure is 200°C (392°F) and anything over potentially causes toxic fumes. I have learned that kerosene lanterns (not cooking lanterns), in general, can produce heat from the vents at temperatures of 500°F to 700°F and even way higher in the thousand and upward mark.

My question is, shouldn't such temperatures definitely turn the zinc into fumes? The answer cannot simply be to make sure you use it outside in a well-ventilated area, case closed. Lanterns are not used in such a straight forward way. You occasionally bring a lantern into cabins or tents, you might huddle around it outside and you might carry it into a cave opening and so on. I feel like I am missing a part of the equation that explains that there is no zinc danger due to high temperatures on such a product. I also could be right and this is the risk people take to use such a product. This product is offered to be powder-coated with choices of different colours, but I want the non-powder-coated for my own reasons. The sought after help will be based on galvanized steel zinc plated only.

 

[EdStainless]

These heat slowly and the Zn does not see direct heating, just hot vented air.
I would expect the Zn (usually Zn Al alloy) to oxidize in the hottest area.
This should be stable given the temperatures seen.
We used lanterns and regardless of the coatings we would run them 10-12hrs in a well ventilated area before using them. There can be lots of fumes coming off of a manufactured item.

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P.E. Metallurgy, consulting work welcomed

 

[Pantomath]

So does that mean that what you expect when zinc oxidizes immunes the issue at hand? You said usually in Zinc aluminum alloy you expect this will happen in the hottest area.

You said because it does not see direct heating (kerosene flame) just the hot vented air. Can that make the difference? That even if the hot vented air is of temperatures that causes toxic fumes from zinc that it is not a factor due to it being only high temperature air and not high temperature direct kerosene flame? People report the vents can be between 500°F to the above thousand °F range for kerosene lanterns.

Does running the kerosene lantern after it has been manufactured for 10-12hrs (regardless of the coating as you say) resolve the issue at hand? Because the oxidization makes it immune to my concern?

My thought on this issue I bring up in my post is to feel secure that I am eliminating dangers. I am getting it non-coated for that reason. I will use high quality clean burning kerosene. The last piece of the puzzle it seems is the actual zinc in the lantern's coating. I wish to not offhandedly feel that as long as I stay in well ventilated areas that I do not need to worry about a clear and present danger. Depending on the final answers I accumulate, I might be forced to try to find a tin Lantern unpainted and treat it my own way. The problem with that is that tin lanterns unpainted don't exist outside of the early 20th century. I do not want to shop around for antiques if galvanized steel lanterns don't pose dangers in the zinc department. I wish to find facts on the subject.

 

[TugboatEng]

The zinc coating may oxidize in the hottest areas. It can only oxidize once. After a heat cycle the lantern will no longer give off zinc fumes provided it doesn't exceed the temperature of the first run. Carbon monoxide is a greater concern than zinc fumes at this point.

 

[Pantomath]

I had to look up the principles of oxidization. I can’t find online anything about oxidization of zinc if it is safe or not. I can only find its benefit. The benefit is a protection against corrosion. I can only assume once oxidized, it cannot create zinc fumes when heated above the threshold of zinc unless it is heated further than its last highest point as you said. Till someone clearly states the principles of why this is true and that oxidization for zinc does work this way, I can only presume it is conjecture and my concern still stands.

To continue with the premise, (I would like to still get re-confirmation that these are facts that are stated above) you said may oxidize in the hottest areas. This leads me to believe that oxidization may take a long time to happen. I looked up oxidization time frames and it looks like the process does not necessarily happen quickly. I am having trouble finding information on the time frame on oxidization for galvanized steel. On more general findings, I see that on other types of surfaces exposed to heat, it can take a long time before fully oxidization occurs. Without more input by people like you, I am left to determine that I can be exposed to zinc fumes over a long period of time before a real acceptable oxidization occurs.

I was hoping that such concerns of mine were inherently addressed when designing lanterns. All lanterns for example coming out of I believe Florida have a hazard warning stating that they contain dangers that can cause reproduction problems to humans and have other warnings. I have tried to delve into why these warnings exist. The most that I can understand that they contain toxins that can be transferred to humans and by state law the consumer needs to be informed. What is the underlying issue and in what way it can be transferred is murky, and I couldn’t find out. I presumed it was the paint heated up (the warnings were not for the carbon monoxide as that had its own separate warning). No lantern from Florida so far has been based on galvanized steel unpainted. I am now at a point where I am doing research on galvanized steel and what galvanized steel means. So far, 10-12hours as suggested from a post for burn time after receiving the item might not be a proper time frame especially when the poster mentions a lot of fumes being produced during those burn time hours. Internet searching is full of conjectures and or is subjective and less actual.

I am hoping to find concrete answers by searching in metal or metallurgy forums. I am starting to suspect there is no hard and fast rule as in, oxidization does give 100% protection, full oxidization takes two days at a certain temperature and ipso facto does naturally cover all the hottest locations, zinc burns off on the inside and the outer bezel (other than the hottest locations like the vent) can never reach zinc fume danger levels. I was hoping such concerns were addressed from the manufacturing level.

I will wait for more posts to hopefully enlighten me and or confirm with certainty what has already been posted.

 

[3DDave]

The biggest, non-carbon monoxide hazard is the fuel can contain carcinogens. Zinc fumes are a problem to welders vaporizing several ounces of zinc per day and it can produce short term, flu-like symptoms that rapidly go away. Last I checked even OSHA, a very safety conscious organization, held no long-term effects requiring controlling zinc fumes besides not sticking ones face into them.

There are LED lamps that are probably better for lighting and won't have any of these chemicals, in addition to not being a basic fuel fire hazard.

 

[EdStainless]

The Zn oxide is more stable than the metal and will not vaporize.
The oxide is stable to 1974C and is non-soluble in water.
It is also used in creams for diaper rash, dermatitis, and sun screen.
No to mention as a nutritional additive to food.
Once the surface oxidizes you don't need to worry about the Zn fumes.

= = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =
P.E. Metallurgy, consulting work welcomed

 

[Pantomath]

how long till zinc oxidizes? With no base of information, I can wildly say years? So a kind of constant will be helpful. For example, If I kept it burning at its maximum heat (is there a heat level you recommend?) for let us say 10 days (how many days do you recommend?), will zinc then fully oxidize? Are their variables I should consider to successfully oxidize zinc? I am coming from the dark to this forum so I must ask the most basic questions.

Can oxidization be visibly understood? Will oxidize zinc be clearly visible and how does it look like on galvanized steel as this is the material we are talking about?

 

[3DDave]

"I was hoping that such concerns of mine were inherently addressed when designing lanterns."

They were.

It is you assuming that the zinc is the problem that is of concern. How did you come to this erroneous belief?

 

[TugboatEng]

"All lanterns for example coming out of I believe Florida have a hazard warning stating that they contain dangers that can cause reproduction problems to humans and have other warnings."

That's California's fault. They created a monster called the "Prop 65 Warning". Essentially, any product sold in the state of California must have a warning that says it causes cancer or reproductive harm unless it is made from materials certified not to. For example, I would like to buy a fender for my truck but cannot in California because it's not prop 65 compliant but also does not have the warning.

 

[EdStainless]

Once the lantern reaches it max stable temp the process is over. An initial burn for 8-10 hours will take care of the Zn as well as other manufacturing residues. I believe that 2 hours would work buy why not all day just ot make sure.
It is not a health issue.

= = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =
P.E. Metallurgy, consulting work welcomed

 

[arunmrao]

In my school days when we weee without electricity hurricane lamp was the only source of light. The light would be bright and clean and the glass had no smoke covered.
As far as you ensure enough kerosene in the lamp it burns well.
Cheaper varieties are either riveted and painted.
I don’t see any major concern using a hurricane lamp

 

[gtaw]

Buy a painted lantern. Problem of zinc fumes solved.

Best regards - Al

 

[TugboatEng]

Unless the paint uses an inorganic zinc pigment such as zinc chromate.

 

[3DDave]

I think the OP is a student. Anyway - the burner assembly for the lamp he indicated he would buy is also galvanized steel and won't be available in powder coat or other painted finish.

 

[blacksmith37]

No. Looks like internet misinformation or misinterpretation. Zinc vaporizes about 1670F at which point it immediately oxidizes in air . Zinc oxide is not harmful; HOWEVER, when it is fresh ( one hour or less) it causes zinc chills = oxide shakes = brass founders augue. As one of very few people who have had it, I can say it is not a problem. I do nor remember missing a day of work. Zinc chills describe it best. At 800F ,liquid zinc can be atomized with air with very little oxidation ( that is a method to make zinc powder for protective coatings.) When galvanized steel is heated ,the zinc does not go anywhere ,it reacts with steel to make iron/zinc intermetallic compounds. Hot dipped had these intermetallics at the interface. The kerosene fumes would be the only objectional vapors from the lantern.

 

[Pantomath]

I greatly appreciate everyone for communicating on my post subject. The base problem of mine is that I am in complete darkness on the subject. I am learning the fundamentals. Keep in mind that I am only interested in kerosene lanterns. I have my own reason and this is my preference. With that said, let me open up some more…

I am not a student. Blacksmith37 is correct about where I am coming from. My approach is from an internet misinformation or misinterpretation. I first read all forms of reviews on lanterns. There are reviews where they speak about the paint job being bad enough that there is extra accumulation in various spots including where the wick is. It would release a bad smell regardless of how long they burned the lantern for because of the excess. Then, I found lanterns sold worldwide with a Florida warning in small print in the description. I found out about this warning Florida is issuing for products that might harm you. The warning stipulates these lanterns have enough significant levels of hazards that can affect you in various ways like reproduction problems in humans if you are exposed to it in such possible ways as in breathing it, swallowing it or skin contact. I tried to research on this mandatory hazard warning. It is a broad explanation and it was impossible for me to dig deep enough to understand.

First, in what method it can harm me? How to formulate the condition(s) that would cause these harms? It stands to reason that it is how the product is made and then how you interact with it. Second, what are the specific hazards in the lantern itself that prompted it to have the hazard warning? Maybe I can control the situation or make a better informed decision if I understood the issue? I thought such a warning might be due to the paint that is used on lanterns. Possibly, the warning might be placed for situations where the paint might heat up or burn to such an extent that it will release toxicity. Toxicity that might happen when companies like I mentioned above will over paint parts of their lanterns (lack of quality control on their part), or simply the type of paint they use. Googling to find out what kind of paints exist that are used on lanterns, what toxicity they carry and how they might be released was overwhelming. Contacting the manufacturers to find out the type of paint they use and waiting for their response was long and drawn out, which did not reveal much. I then thought to not worry about the paint and focus and get an unpainted lantern. I still had to attempt to cover all bases on what the Florida hazard law might be touching upon as it might not be based on the paint.

I moved on to metallurgy. I looked at the kinds of metals lanterns can be made out of. Brass is one type. I looked up brass and brass can be made from copper, zinc and possibly lead. Lead poses a danger to humans. In brass faucets or plumbing fittings where lead is present in brass, I learned that lead may be released within the water system. This means that lead does leak out of brass in one way or another. I could not find out the metallurgy of the brass lanterns being offered, so I moved on.

I found lanterns made out of galvanized steel. I had to learn what galvanized steel even means. I learned that it means there is zinc involved. So I looked up zinc but the best that the internet has to offer is to explain the hazard of zinc towards welding. Limiting knowledge to welding is not sufficient, but no other research bared further information on how the average person can be exposed and or affected by galvanized steel zinc plated. I attempted to find a forum that focuses on metallurgy. I know zinc can cause reactions when heated too hot, reactions that are temporary when you are exposed but long term studies have not been done, as the internet claims. I do not want to simply wave off zinc contact as non-important because affects are temporary. Long term studies have not been done so I prefer to err on the side of caution. Various sources say that zinc can turn into fumes at different temperatures depending on the method. I mentioned this in my earlier post. Wiki says for hot-dip galvanized steel long term heat exposure maximum temperature is 200 °C (392 °F). The same wiki says that over this temperature when using galvanized steel results in peeling of the zinc, at the inter metallic layer and the mentioning of fume creation. This is the best interpretation I was able to understand from Wiki. Here is the link

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hot-dip_galvanization

. I also posted that people have measured the heat from kerosene lanterns which can and have reached 500°F to 700°F and into the thousand °F and above mark. There are responses to this post mentioning oxidization. I do not understand oxidization so I researched it and tried to ask the right questions as you can see in my postings. Remember, I am in the dark in all these concepts.


EdStainless said "The Zn oxide is more stable than the metal and will not vaporize. The oxide is stable to 1974C". "Once the lantern reaches it max stable temp the process is over. An initial burn for 8-10 hours will take care of the Zn as well as other manufacturing residues.”. That sounds like an answer I can live with. It is an extension of what you were trying to tell me earlier. I appreciate the extra information as it made the difference.

blacksmith37 said "When galvanized steel is heated ,the zinc does not go anywhere ,it reacts with steel to make iron/zinc intermetallic compounds. Hot dipped had these intermetallics at the interface.". I presume this means that iron/zinc intermetallic compounds are a non-reactionary production towards heat. The zinc has permanently become non- gaseous and non-peeling no matter if the heat rises to a thousand °F and upwards like others have reported for kerosene lanterns? Intermetallic compounds is a different creation that does not work anymore like when it was separated but in itself a new stable compound? What you are saying sounds like the intermetallic reaction was created after the hot-dip procedure from the factory level. My original question on the zinc is moot due to solving what I perceived as an issue from the factory level. I am repeating to make sure I understand you correctly. If I understand you correctly, that is an answer I can live with.

 

[SwinnyGG]

This much hand-wringing to buy a lantern? I wonder how long it takes you to decide on a car or a house...

In any event, you're misinterpreting a wiki article and going down a rabbit hole of confusion as a result.

200C is the recognized limit for long-term, continuous exposure. The use of a lantern is neither long-term nor continuous. Quite the opposite in fact. That temperature also has nothing to do with the production of zinc vapor; it's related to the performance of the coating at its primary purpose, as a corrosion inhibitor.

At this point if you're that concerned I'd suggest just buying an LED lantern and be done with it.

 

[3DDave]

Please post links to those reviews of lamps with painted burners. I would enjoy seeing who paints those in anything except decoration-only lamps.

 

[Pantomath]

As swinnyGG is saying, I went down a long path. I have to try to backtrack so I can remember where everything is, I will try to post what you are asking for 3DDave.

SwinnyGG, you say it is related to the performance of the coating at its primary purpose, as a corrosion inhibitor. How then does it affect the performance? I am interested to know the truth from you rather than Wiki. The real concern comes from what Florida means in their hazard warning. TugboatEng says it is called "Prop 65 Warning". When I try to read up on why lanterns that Florida recognizes (which is all of them it seems) as deserving of the "Prop 65 Warning" hazard warning, I only receive from them broad strokes. They do clearly say against the lanterns that they contain artifacts that do cause specific human issues and so potentially you can come in contact with these artifacts which cause reproduction problems in both men and woman. Such a heavy and significant message yet with no substance provided, how can I look into what they are saying? I tried, they don't provide, it gets technical and broad and oh my. I am being forced to figure it out myself the best I can. It is a serious message that I must take seriously. I figured that even if I don't buy from Florida, they have deemed many lanterns of various types dangerous enough to have this warning. What is the underlying danger that they are willing to put front and centre for public view but anybody else keeps it back and obscure? All I want is the clarity/understanding.

If you are interested, here is a link I still have open who asks a similar question about galvanized steel and zinc

https://www.pirate4x4.com/threads/g...g-exactly-how-hot-does-it-have-to-get.668831/

. It is an interesting read.