Can we really blame the slow recovery of the economy on the lack of engineering students... 8

[JohnRBaker]

Well this should elicit some interesting discussion as the editor of 'Machine Design' magazine seems to think so, or at least he appears to be agreeing with someone who's written a book that includes this claim and supposedly has the data to back it up:

http://machinedesign.com/editorial-comment/those-dead-beat-liberal-arts-students

John R. Baker, P.E.
Product 'Evangelist'
Product Engineering Software
Siemens PLM Software Inc.
Industry Sector
Cypress, CA
Siemens PLM:
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To an Engineer, the glass is twice as big as it needs to be.

 

[Enginerd9]

My Matchbox cars were made in China, or made in Taiwan I think. Some of the stuff they gave me may have been made in Japan. Let's just say I'm a mid life crisis away from early retirement. To a shack. In the woods. Where I grow my beans for soup.

 

[ornerynorsk]

I wish I still had mine, they were made in England under the name Lesney, if memory serves. Wonder when they were outsourced to Asia?

It is better to have enough ideas for some of them to be wrong, than to be always right by having no ideas at all.

 

[Enginerd9]

I think it was about 1984. The Wiki article actually has a lot of info in their history segment. I know how you all LOVE wiki.

 

[cranky108]

So what do we still make here? We mine oil, gas, and coal. We make cars that burn. We make big airplanes. But what is new that we make?

Maybe that's the problem, we make things somewhere else. We only design part of those things here.

As the number of jobs goes down, so does the demand for many goods, execept staples like food. So by shipping manufacturing, we have also shiped jobs, and created customers some where else (job less people make bad customers).
And the worst is that the assembly instructions of the things we buy, appear to be written by a second grader (bad spelling, bad grammer). Question is if the instructions in other languages are written just as bad?

 

[JohnRBaker]

Back in college I had a 1965 Honda 305 Superhawk...

...which was a very nice bike, but the owners manual was almost useless since apparently, or at least it felt like it was translated almost word-for-word from Japanese to English. All the needed information was there, just that when you finished reading something it didn't really make all that much sense. Thank God for the pictures as they were often more useful than the included text.



John R. Baker, P.E.
Product 'Evangelist'
Product Engineering Software
Siemens PLM Software Inc.
Industry Sector
Cypress, CA
Siemens PLM:
UG/NX Museum:

To an Engineer, the glass is twice as big as it needs to be.

 

[swall]

"Engine does not start of hard starting" remains one of my favorites (from factory CB/CL 160 shop manual).

 

[zdas04]

I keep hearing "death of the middle class". This so-called "death" is really just a silly game with definitions. I recently saw a video that claimed that someone in the US making 1/2 of the poverty level for a family of 4 is better off (more food, more stable housing, better access to transportation, neighborhoods less risky, and much better access to recreation) than the middle class in most of the world. In the rest of the world a poor person is struggling to get enough to eat, clean water, and to avoid predation by gangs (organized and disorganized) and you can identify them by protruding ribs, filthy clothing, and poor health. Not so here. The "poor" person in front of me at Sam's Club last Saturday using her EBT card to purchase steaks hadn't missed many meals and since she had too much stuff to carry on her back I'm going to assume she has a vehicle. The life style looked pretty middle class to me.

Now if we're talking about "working middle class" then there have been declines, but mostly the declines have been due to the poverty line moving upwards by 3-4 times the rate of inflation every year. There are politicians who seem to get some personal benefit from a shrinking middle class. It is far too subtle for me.

David Simpson, PE
MuleShoe Engineering

Law is the common force organized to act as an obstacle of injustice Frédéric Bastiat

 

[cranky108]

You mean we can be paid to be middle class?
And if I recall correctly SAMS charges a fee to be a member. Poor people can't afford that.

 

[KENAT]

zdas, not sure if it varies by state but I'm led to believe EBT cards are used by other than those sucking at the teat of welfare per se, for instance I understand some assistance to foster parents is via EBT card.

Now it may well be the person you saw is the poster child for the trailer park queen stereotype, but then they might not.

Then there's how to define 'poor', is it an absolute term and if so what is the line in the sand - if you have some kind of minimal level of shelter, enough food of appropriate quality to avoid gross malnutrition, at least one change of clothes and access to potable water is that the definition? Or is the definition relative, and if so relative to what national median income, national mean income...

As to membership of Sams club, maybe the person did due diligence calculated how much they could save V cost of membership and it made sense for them. Maybe a well meaning friend or family member paid their membership for them.

Anyway veering wildly off topic here.

Back to the OP they did qualify their statement about lack of engineers by saying something about the quality of those grads. Maybe there is something to the idea that some folks drop hard STEM subjects for 'easier' humanities etc - I've seen a number of claims and examples about this. Now if it's the students own money paying for the education & making the wrong choice doesn't somehow lead them onto welfare etc. then what business is it of ours to second guess it? However, if the education is state supported then it is arguably an issue for tax payers to consider - though to lay it as the major factor in the recent economic troubles iseems ridiculous.

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[brandonbw]

My Mom raised hell when I wasn't doing so well in school and I wanted to switch to a business major. She thought I would be taking the easy way out.

You really have to want to be an engineer since the pay is awful, its a stressful job, and there is no status in it whatsoever. I am about to turn 35 and this has been my experience so far. The perception of society will probably lead to a decline in engineers. Not to mention this stuff gets really dumbed down when people tack some fancy term to engineer to describe their job. So now the engineering profession is diluted even more. How crazy is it that most of the "engineers" I have met are something very different.

During the Sochi opening ceremony NBC was giving all this praise to the person who dreamt up the show, and that's about it. The closest they got to mentioning any other profession involved in that stadium were the lighting people. And in TV shows and movies how often does an engineer make an experience? Everyone is a doctor, lawyer, Architect who works from home, or killer or all of the above.

Who exactly is pushing for the STEMS besides a parent or some nerdy kid who meets an engineer early on?

B+W Engineering and Design
Los Angeles Civil Engineer and Structural Engineer

http://bwengr.com

 

[Enginerd9]

"Not to mention this stuff gets really dumbed down when people tack some fancy term to engineer to describe their job."

I've always thought that was true.

Experience: accumulated knowledge over time.

Talent: the ability to use experience.

Which is more valuable?

 

[Enginerd9]

Or rather, the misappropriation of the term "Engineer" to glorify their otherwise boring job title.

Experience: accumulated knowledge over time.

Talent: the ability to use experience.

Which is more valuable?

 

[cranky108]

If you can retitle everyone then you can paint the world like you want to see it. Nobels and Naves (guess which one we are being painted as)?

 

[SnTMan]

brandonbw, could be worse, at least they are not showing engineers as killers

Regards,

Mike

 

[KENAT]

"You really have to want to be an engineer since the pay is awful"

What clap trap. While it may vary by location, sector and various other factors...

For having only a bachelors degree engineering typically pays pretty well.

For instance before comparing to other traditional 'professionals' remember not all MDs & lawyers make the kind of money many of us believe (&/or the numbers quoted are before they pay their staff, rent, insurance and other expenses). Also both require significant post grad studies, and the hours/schedule for juniors can be pretty rough.

Sure, I'd like to be paid more, work less, be greeted deferentially by the peons I meet in the rest of the world... but to say the pay is awful as a general statement for all engineers is ridiculous.

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[JohnRBaker]

I agree with KENAT, engineering has always provided me and my family with a decent life. Yea, I would like to make more money, who doesn't, but it has never disappointed me. Perhaps I've been lucky working for whom I have and doing what I like doing, but I've changed jobs over the years, both by changing companies and by accepting opportunities offered internally, so I've had a say in what I'm doing which determines how much the company values my contributions and I feel that I've always been compensated appropriately.

John R. Baker, P.E.
Product 'Evangelist'
Product Engineering Software
Siemens PLM Software Inc.
Industry Sector
Cypress, CA
Siemens PLM:
UG/NX Museum:

To an Engineer, the glass is twice as big as it needs to be.

 

[GregLocock]

First hit!

http://www.seek.com.au/jobs-resources/

Now, obviously those stats are for the jobs on that website, but it doesn't look like 'awful' is a very accurate term. And frankly, in 34 years I've been unemployed for a grand total of 2 months.

Cheers

Greg Locock


New here? Try reading these, they might help FAQ731-376

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[JohnRBaker]

That table is in Australian dollars, which needs to be reduced by about 10% to get US dollars.

Here's a site that will give you median incomes, in local currencies, for most anyplace (just select the 'flag' in the upper-left to change countries). To get a min/max range and other data, just click on a job title.

http://www.payscale.com/research/US/Country=United_States/Salary

John R. Baker, P.E.
Product 'Evangelist'
Product Engineering Software
Siemens PLM Software Inc.
Industry Sector
Cypress, CA
Siemens PLM:
UG/NX Museum:

To an Engineer, the glass is twice as big as it needs to be.

 

[cranky108]

So if there is a shortage of engineers, why is the pay so low?

Not that I have a problem with what I make, but apperently many business and HR types have never studied economics.
Or maybe they think none of us have.

The problem with recruting more people into engineering, is some of the people you would attract don't have an appitude. So what you end up with is a bad engineer, which is a problem in itself.

And if an engineer were sucessful, and well paid in there home country, why would they want to come here? Maybe pay, or maybe they aren't that good to start with.

 

[SnTMan]

Most people would give anything to get out of most countries in the world.

Regards,

Mike