Can you pump into a test header on a fire pump to feed the system?

[openmike11]

I have been questioned about this and have come up with different answers:

In reference to a fire pump test header, if the FDC is unusable outside of the structure can you pump into the test header to fill the standpipe or is there a check valve that prevents this? I know you can use it as an "improvised" wall hydrant and you have to go into the pump room and open the control valve to the header to get water out, just not sure about pumping into it.

Thanks for any help.....

 

[cdafd]

thats a new one

seem like you could

1. would have to have the right adapters to connect the hose

2. maybe would have to hit 2 to 3 connections

3. make sure you open any closed valves

4. question of what all directions the water will go


guess the last question is if the pump is running why would you?????

 

[ContractorDave]

It's certainly not a code issue. In a fire, anything goes. One does what one has to to try to address the situation, but I doubt that an emergency response team would go about attempting to flesh out whether or not to tie into the fire pump test header if the fdc was damaged so badly they couldn't hook up to it. Also, though the test header is usually outside, there's almost always a main control valve to the header that is located at the fire pump and most fire pumps are within the building and usually in a locked mechanical room. The whole scenario is actually quite situation dependent. Every fire situation is different. Every building sprinkler system is different. So in short, yes it may be possible in a hypothetical way, but no, it would not be considered in a real life response.

Regards
Dave

 

[ContractorDave]

LOL (silly acronym for laugh out loud apparently) I didn't see cd's post whilst I was pontificating. But he hit the nail on the head.

"guess the last question is if the pump is running why would you?????"

Regards
Dave

 

[stookeyfpe]

It's not going to work. Like CDA said, the firefighters got to be smart enough to figure out which valves to open. Second, and I've never calculated it, but pumping through a pump casing and impeller is going to break up the flow and create a large volume of losses due to friction.

All fire pumps have emergency start features, and it varies between the type of driver and the manufacturer (a pet peeve of mine). Spend the time training the firefighters how to use the emergency start feature. If the fire incident has reached the point where one considers pumping through a test header, just go home and come back the following day because the fire has won.

For fun, do what I did when I was an AHJ. I took a photograph of a pump test header and showed it to 15 fire captains, all assigned to Engine companies. Not one of them knew what it was but everyone of them said they would pump into it. I had a high-rise fire about 15 years ago early in the morning and when I arrived, an engine company very familiar with this area of town was attempting to pump the test header. The header was at the back of the building while all the other fire companies where in front, so no one knew any better. I pulled the Lieutenant aside and offered him a 30 second lesson why his actions wouldn't work. He immediately disconnected the supply lines, drove to the FDC, and started pumping the correct fitting while I geared up and reported on scene. No one knew about this and I didn't bring it up - but I can assure you, everyone on that shift now knows not to use the pump test header as a FDC. The department's SOP now reflect this.

 

[ContractorDave]

Stookey You're not pumping thru the fire pump if you are pumping into a test header as the header has to be after the pump.

I've never seen a test header that looks like an fdc connection. Why people do certain things in the heat of the moment is certainly the topic for psych students, but generally the fire department are staffed with trained professionals who don't arbitrarily run around during an emergency response tying their hoses into connections they aren't familiar with. There's an exception to every case of course.

As I said, you COULD hypothetically pump through a test header. In real life it's not likely to be done (assuming you are not doing it by mistake)

Regards
Dave.

Regards
Dave

 

[stookeyfpe]

I stand corrected as it relates to test headers. Thanks Lightecho.

I'll stand on my statements concerning pumping into pump test headers. I've seen it and its a concern.

 

[openmike11]

Thanks for the views guys, This scenario would definitley be a last resort if the pump was NOT working, Fireman are taught to pump into FDC's or a 1st floor standpipe outlet if the FDC is missing or inoperable. The FDC should have female couplings and the test header male, so it should be pretty obvious what they are. I was just not sure if it would be something that could be done, I thought there was a check valve in the test header, but I was reading an article that discusses using it for the purpose of backfilling the system for the sprinklers which made me pose the question.....anymore advice is appreciated...

 

[ContractorDave]

Stookey

Forgive my presumptuousness in correcting you. I come here to learn things from others and to impart on the rare occasion my two bits when I actually know something about the particular topic posted. You are one of the MVP's I come here to learn things from.

Regards
Dave

 

[cdafd]

to answer one question no ther is not nornally a check valve in the test header line, because there is normally a valve in the piping, that is in the normally shut position.

lot of normally's

 

[Cidona]

My understanding is that you are not allowed to put a shut off valve in the FDC piping (see NFPA 13 2007 section 8.16.1.1.1.3). The logic being that the FDC is going to be used in an emergancy situation and in that case they don't want to take a chance that a valve would prevent water getting into the distribution system. This is about the only time you will see a check valve without a shut off as they are normally required for maintenance.
Since you cann't have a shut off, you will need some way of preventing the water from coming out of the FDC when the system is under pressure. This would usually be sone with a check valve.
If due to job conditions, you really needed to utilize the PTH as a 'Combo FDC' location, it would seem, it would at a minimum require some alterations to conform with code. I would be looking at it as, you are retrofitting the system so that the PTH is now going to be a FDC. You have to meet all the rquirements for FDC. It would seem this can be acomplished with a loop (with a check valve) bypassing the PTH shut off. PTH hose type would have to have the right connection type for FDC use, Signage noting it as an FDC and approval from AHJ regarding new location, etc would also be required.
See attached file for clarification on my concept.
Please let me know if I have misinterpredted anything.

 

[cdafd]

Please let me know if I have misinterpredted anything.


the op was just wondering alternatives if the fdc is not usable for some reason

 

[Cidona]

Ooops, I thought op question was in regards to a permanent solution for the PTH to be utilzed as an FDC.

 

[ContractorDave]

Cidona.

I don't believe anyone is suggesting putting a valve in the FDC line, and you are correct regarding 13.

A problem with your drawing (and a nice drawing it is!) is that you get a loop through your FDC bypass when you go to do the flow testing and may not get accurate measurements? Maybe not. Otherwise it is the same set-up a system might employ as a supply test arrangement when the main drain is not big enough.

I wouldn't remove the existing FDC either?

Regards
Dave

 

[Cidona]

Dave.
It was my misinterpretation as cdafd was kind enough to inform me. I had rushed through reading of the original post (I slapped myself.
'A problem with your drawing (and a nice drawing it is!) is that you get a loop through your FDC bypass when you go to do the flow testing and may not get accurate measurements? Maybe not.'- Interesting. I would think the fact that there is going to be less pressure on the FDC side of the check that and that water is going to take the path of least resistance, circulation would not occur but maybe it is posible and it is a concept I had not concidered. Perhaps if the PTH was a number of stories above the pump(?) Has anyone experience/theroy on this?
'I wouldn't remove the existing FDC either?' - Agin, I thought the op was for a situation that was requiring the existing PTH to be used (due to the existing not meeting their needs. extention where the existing was/change of premises operation...). I was saying to remove it so it wouldn't confuse procedures.
Thanks for the corrects.

PS '(and a nice drawing it is!) - Thanks, but I guess it's only nice if it's right

 

[cdafd]

Cidona

here you go, i do the same on these things

http://www.evelynwood.com.au/

 

[openmike11]

I never imagined I would get this many replies on this, its awesome!

Anyway, I think everyone understands the question now. It is strictly a "what if this was the last resort" type thing, I just did not know if it would be possible to pump into the PTH and backfill the system. I had several people tell me there was a check valve in the PTH.

Anyway, thanks for all the responses.....

Mike

 

[TravisMack]

If designed / installed properly, there is a check valve immediately after the pump and a check valve in the pump bypass. These will prohibit you from pumping back against, or through the pump if you had to resort to this scenario. As stated, the only other valves on the discharge side of the pump, aside from the test header valve, should be the discharge pump isolation valve.



Travis Mack
MFP Design, LLC

 

[Cidona]

cdafd, think that evelywood thing works? 6000 word/min sounds great Had heard of things like this before but it always seemed to come on the TV inbetween 'How to make millions in real estate/selling goods from home' type infomericals. Would be nice to just flick through a 'how to fly a helicoptor book during lunch and be able to go flying after dinner.