Can you use PD5500 for vessel design for BRAZIL or should it be ASME? 2

[trevornelson]

Hi everyone.

I am looking to place a vessel in Brazil within a new facility we are constructing.

I am looking for advice on suitable design codes for vessels deployed in Brazil as NR13 does not list any approved country codes such as ASME or PD5500 etc and isn't really a route to compliance document.

This will be a land based test vessel approx 2.9 m diameter , 4m long and working pressure of 450bar (6500psi)

Our preferred supplier has assured us that they have supplied into Brazil vessels into Brazil previously using design based on PD5500 and PED. They are a UK company and their prefered code is PD5500. My initial preference would be ASME VIII Div2 because of its universal acceptance. The differences in the code using design by analysis is close so with some changes to allowable stresses and hydro pressures they should be able to dual certify the design.

I am also not sure whether the vessel will require independent 3rd party assessment on design from a Brazilian authority

Could someone just confirm if PD5500 would be acceptable for use in Brazil and relay their experience with vessel deployment in Brazil and if you could pint me to a fountain of knowledge whether a code, document, or person or company that could further advise.

Thanks in advance.

 

[metengr]

Why don't you directly to the source, the Brazilian government?

 

[desertfox]

Hi

I have worked in Brazil quite recently and dealt with a company who do pressure vessels and they only use ASME and found any European standards were quite unknown to them and this was in Sao Paulo.

 

[MortenA]

I would say at mentengr: Its Brazil - not the US (and ASME is recognized universally the same way as world series in baseball... ). They may accept ASME, PD5500 or they may not.

Best regards, Morten

BTW: Brazil is well know for having a very high degree of requirement to source locally (i havnt worked there, but i have heard this).

 

[mechanical2014]

You are right, NR13 does not list any approved codes such as ASME or PD5500 etc. But NR13 is a regulation document and the same is over and above any design code. Regarding design code, check the project specifications/documents. If there is no listing of any specific design codes for pressure vessels then in my opinion ask your client first. I have used ASME SECTION VIII DIV 1+NR13 in one of my project for PETROBRAS.

 

[trevornelson]

Thanks for everyone that has posted a reply.

This is tricky for me as when I was a supplier I used to design to whatever code requirement was stipulated by the customer so there was no thought required, like the post above with Petrobras requiring Div1.

Now I am the client its trickier as I don't have a preference as the vessel is stand alone and for one of our test facilities, so not linking to a process system or anything. Having designed to most of vessel codes they are all give safe enough designs. PD5500 and ASME Div2 are so close they could dual certify with a bit of careful consideration. This is a new factory so there is no precedent on site and I don't want a vessel to arrive that would be sort of illegal due to the wrong code compliance.
I think I will ask our manufacturer to dual certify their design to Div2 to be safe. It would have to be Div2 as due to the shape it needs to be FEA designed.

Much of the factory is being sourced from Brazil so I think we should be ok for local sourcing on this one, but your right they are tightening up on this.

I do wish it was a bit more clearer though.

Thanks again for any other comments that anyone has.

 

[desertfox]

Hi

I doubt you can duel certify, non destructive test procedures on welds for example have different criteria for flaws etc.
We had pressure vessel equipments to European standards and when we tried to get it repaired and compared European specifications with ASME specifications we could not match them.
We ended up using ASME because that's all they knew in SAO PAULO.

 

[Progger4]

I am a brazilian engineer. As far as NR-13 is concerned, any pressure vessel is acceptable as such provided it has been designed (with documents supporting this) according to any widely recognized pressure vessel design code. For historical reasons, ASME is best known and extensively used here in Brazil, but it does not mean the European codes/standards are not known, or worse, not accepted. I would recommend using EN13445, though, as the Published Document 5500 no longer holds the status of a standard.

No independent 3rd party assessment on design from a Brazilian authority will be required. NR-13 assigns to the "Profissional Habilitado", aka PH, the task of checking the vessel's documentation for compliance with any pressure vessel code.

As correctly mentioned before, NR-13 is not a "route to compliance". It is not a brazilian code; it is not ment to supersede or take precedence over any international pressure vessel code/standard. What it does is establish (additional) minimum requirements for the safe management (a broad term that includes installation, operation, inspection and maintenance of such equipments) of pressure vessels (boilers and, most recently, some pipings) located in brazilian facilities.

 

[GenB]

Well, thank you. I believe that everyone can profit from this information if a future order comes from emerging markets. Regards. Genblr

 

[trevornelson]

Hi Progger4.
I have only just rechecked this thread. Thank you for your reponce. It is very helpful.
Would it be possible for you to further expand on your answer please.

You mention that no further 3rd party design assesment would be required. Would this also be the case if the vessel was designed and constructed outside of brazil? I am a UK chartered engineer however Brazil has not signed up to the international agreements that recognises professional engineers from other contries ( i think its called the washington accord). With this in mind does this mean the qualified professionl stated in NR13 "in accordance with the prevailing professional regulation of brazil" has to be a brazillian professional engineer?

if so in this case do we need to revert to a brazilian engineer to ratify the calcs or contact someone like lloyds register to get their brazilian office to sign it off?

I am trying to be thorough as we need these vessels in service and dont want to be in the position of comissioning delays due to local certification and insurance.

Your assistance is gratefully recieved.