Changing Jobs within Civil/Env area 2

[gjma716]

Hello,

Lately I have been decieding on whether or not I want to change jobs. I graduated with a BSCE in December of 03 and have been work for the USDOT for 3 years (5 if you include my internship). I am in the air quality area and spend most of my time do analysis, writing environmental assessments and impact assements, running AQ models. I have been thinking about switching into either a transportation or site design because those are the classes I enjoyed taking in college. I enjoy certain aspects of my job but my heart is just not in the AQ area. I just recently passed the FE exam and will probably move forward with getting the PE within the next two years. I feel sticking with the gov't though I will be limited as I move up. My question is what should I expect in switching areas from air quality to transportation(i.e., tasks, software, etc..)? I now I will probably be a CAD monkey for a few months and will have to buff up on my CAD skills a bit. But would a company/firm be more willing to take me on than a fresh grad because I have a couple years work experience?

My questions are pretty vague but I am trying to get some advice from some people who may have done this also for any of those civil folks that are currently in my desired field to let me know how to prepare myself (i.e., learning new software or familarizing myself with codes and regs) to make a smooth transition?

 

[proletariat]

I have moved from construction to state dot to land development (site civil) consulting, so it can be done. I had to work at a bargain price for two years at a consultant before moving on to a better paying gig.

If land development (site civil) is your goal, you would be more attractive if you knew autocad land development desktop, hydrology, and hydraulics. Publications to study would be FHWA HEC 22, HEC 15, HDS 01 through 05, your state dot design manuals for drainage, and state dot construction standard drawings. Of course, I haven't read all of these and neither have the people you will be interviewing with, but it would really give you a leg up in the interview process if you understood the concepts. I have also realized that the help menus of software like hydrocad and hydraflow can give some good lessons on not only the software, but the hydraulic concepts behind it. Hydrocad has a free version available on their website.

If traffic is your thing, the ITE trip generation manual, highway capacity manual, some kind of signal design book, and state dot traffic study manuals would be good to know.

If geometric highway design is your thing, the AASHTO green book is essential.

If you are unable to break into your desired field, you could probably make more money by just going into the private side of what you already do. I imagine that there are consultants that deal with US DOT that would value your knowledge of the department.

Local colleges sometimes offer short courses as continuing education for engineers that need hours to maintain their pe licenses. I have found that I learn about as much in a 3 day, 8hr per day class as I did in a semester college course. Just stick to the basic courses because an esoteric discussion of bioretention bmp's is not going to do you any good at this point.

 

[Beggar]

What should you expect moving from a government position to a private one?

1) No more pension plan - it *might* be replaced by a company donation toward your retirement of a a few thousand dollars.

2) Lousy medical insurance - Expect deductables in the range of 20 - 40% (mine is 35) along with $20 to $40 copays. If you're lucky, brand-name meds will be covered. If not, be prepared to spend over $100 for a simple antibiotic (because most of the generics don't work on the newer bacaterial generations).

3) Longer hours. Most private employers are results oriented and may charge billable time. They expect you to hussle and you will see some serious overtime from time to time. My obserbation of the government guys is that a good solid 40 hours is almost considered overtime.

4) At least one layoff, likely 3-6 over your career.

I would never leave a state job if I had one. Do what you can to move within the state dot into something you prefer but don't be so foolish as to jump ship.

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How much do YOU owe?

http://www.brillig.com/debt_clock/

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[gjma716]

Thanks for the advice guys. Thanks proletariat for the info. I will definatley look into those as I start to look into which area I would like to pursue. If you don't mind me asking what you consider a bargain rate? Right now I am in the high 50's but I switched jobs into a different area I can at most handle a 5k pay cut. And maybe make that up with overtime. I am in the Boston area so I think asking somewhere a little over 50 would not be unreasonable since I do have some working experience. My other option that I am considering would be to wait until I pass the PE and try to switch then. With a PE I might be able to switch into the transportation or Land Development and demand higher pay. Is this a realistic view? Also does Autodesk have a student version of LDD. I have been looking for a cheap copy so I can familarize myself with it but have been unable to fine one.

Beggar, I have all of those concern's as well. The pension and insurance are big issues for me but my biggest worry is the being laid off. When reading the forum's I have noticed that is a big issue with all the aero, mech, electrical and petro engineers. I haven't see many if any posts from civil/env engineers about layoffs. I was hoping more civil's would post and let me know if that is a big worry of theirs in the private side.

 

[proletariat]

I made low 40s at NCDOT w/ a PE license. (I waited to get my PE before moving to the private sector in order to make up for my lack of design experience.) I started at low 50s (a bargain rate) in PA when I made the transition to LD. Now I make low 60s in PA. I jumped 20k in less than 2 years by moving around, which has been nice. I'd say you are doing well making high 50's with no PE. In your shoes, I would probably try to move to something I liked within US DOT and keep the federal benefits and slack work weeks. The pay doesn't seem that much better on the outside. Of course, I don't know what the cost of living is near Boston.

 

[proletariat]

Furthermore, if you can make the transition now, I would do it rather than wait 2 years to get your PE. Career inertia is a strong force, and it will only get harder to convince companies to hire you as entry level, not to mention take the bigger pay cut to start at entry level two years from now after you have two years worth of raises. It just worked out to be very convenient for me to get my PE before leaving DOT.

 

[proletariat]

I'm also not worried at all about being laid off. The company I work for is involved in commercial, industrial, and residential development, so if one sector gets slack, the others will probably allow the company to float along. I would say that civil is one of the most insulated disciplines from layoffs. You can also usually find a job in any city in the country. However if you can't fall as far, you usually don't fly as high, meaning that civil salaries are low compared to other disciplines. Entry chem Es make more than I do with my 5 years of experience.

 

[gjma716]

Thanks again proletariat,

Everything you mention sounds about right. The salary amount I think varies widely depending on location. Boston's cost of living is very high. I don't know where you are in PA but you 3 bedroom 1.5 bath starter built in the 70's goes for a min. of $330,000. Taxes on that would be about $4k a year depending on the town you live in. I live in a condo and have student loans so that is why I would still require more than 50k a year. I wouldn't mind working 50 hour weeks as long as I get paid for it. I basically do it now if you include my commute in and out. I think I still have a bit more research to do before I consider leaving a Fed job. Although my job isn't as slack as the stereotypical fed job. My office is kind of like a contracter to the federal government although I am a federal employee. Although it does get pretty slack around the holidays because everybody uses their use or lose vacation time which after 3 years of service is close to 4 weeks a year.

 

[proletariat]

That's about double the price of a house where I am.

 

[Beggar]

4 weeks vacation after three years...

Add that one to my list. From my experience at several firms, vacation is generally 10 days for first five years, 15 days for 6-15 years, and 20 days after that. Often, you'll get a few more vacation days but no "sick" time.

Also, holidays are often about 8 or 9 per year (1/1, Mem Day, 7/4, Lab Day, Thkggvg Th & Fri, X-mas plus a floater or two).

Don't leave Club Fed unless you can hook up with a better gig with another governmental agency.

Of course, you *can* earn a ton more in the private sector but that potential comes with a high risk.

--------------------
How much do YOU owe?

http://www.brillig.com/debt_clock/

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[RLM2000]

Wow good responses.

I was nearly in the exact same shoes as you. I was working for the Fed (club fed) and making a good salary for my area, very comfortable with job security, nice pension, and easy work-weeks. I literally would see how low I could make my heart rate drop by sitting really still. I kept a log of my best times on Excel. Why was I not busy? Because I was milking the sweet teat of the federal gubment and watching the stuff I learned in college that I am still paying for go to waste.

It was comfortable and the guv is full of once talented engineers pigeon holed specifying the torque on a widget for the rest of their lives. I knew after 2.5 years I did not fit in there.

I quit and took a pay cut to work at a multi faceted consulting firm. The work environment and challenge in the first 6 months was enough to know that I had made the right choice. Granted the health benefits are less (although you do pay for them with the Fed which some people do not know, and I don't now) and the security is less the upside is much more real and quantifiable.

In the real world you will get recognized for hard work and should expect to get paid for it. At the government you might get an AttaBoy from a supervisor, but it is only because he is required to give you one, and normally there isn't money attached. I made GS-12 after 2 years which was pretty quick, and I took a 9k pay cut when I left, but now I make more I would had I stuck with my GS-12 position (2 years later).

Look at yourself and where you want to be in the future. Do you want to have a comfortable position and know every morning what the day holds, or do you want to have an element of unknown in every action of every day. If you want to actually be an engineer I would suggest leaving the Fed FAST.

When you look at prospective firms look for variety of disciplines in the firm(this helps for lay-offs), look for work environment and talk to the peons in the firm to make sure they are the type of people you will get along with. I talked to drafters and other engineers at my firm before coming here and realized I would fit in really well. There was one drafter who was disgruntled and remained so until I got promoted to PM and fired him. Don't worry he found another office to make people miserable at.

 

[gjma716]

Thanks RLM2000,

Thanks for you response. Yeah right now I am at a GS-11 and I have only been working here full time for just over 2 years. I am gaining some good experience in Air Quality though. I have been doing a little bit a research and it looks like that Air Quality pays a bit better than doing roadway design for traffic studies. I guess a general question I have is if I do go into a multi-disiplinary firm that does do air quality work and stuff on the say traffic and site development side of things as well will I get to participate on those areas as well? That would be ideal because then I wouldn't be throwing away all my skills and still be able to learn other things at the same time. Is this typical in firms of any size?

 

[RLM2000]

If you go to work in a large firm you will quite possibly be joining just another bureaucracy and can get pigeon-holed there just as easily. You need to research the firm in question and talk to the employees to ensure that they are satisfied with what they are getting. If they are simply stuck in a department doing the same thing over and over then you would be better off to stay with the fed.

When I joined up here I just said "Look I haven't got to do a lot of what you guys do, but get me in on probation and let me prove myself." They had the space and thought I was serious. It was a risk, but I was confident that I could produce enough to make it worthwile to keep me on. I had to study and work from home to get caught up and keep on budget. If these are things you're willing to do say it to the prospective firms, but most importantly actually do it. I interviewed an employee who said all these things, but only paid them lip service. They got sent packing after the probationary period. Build yourself up but make it the truth.


Nothing ventured, nothing gained. . .