Chemical Engineer - Fast-tracking to a better job. Advice Needed 1

[jonton0021]

So, about 9 months ago, I started a new job as a "Staff Engineer" over at my current job. Though the job title sounded enticing, I shortly learned that it was not the job for me. The job had very little engineering within it, and involved doing more sales quotes to customers who are requesting custom or specific chemicals. While I have learned a lot regarding to starting materials, how materials are made, and general pricing of materials, I do not want to be stuck in a sales position forever. This would be alright if there was the ability to move within the company. However, there is no way to do that, because the company is privately owned, and there is no structure system on how to move up or around. The boss at my current job is the owner of the company, and has the most experience in what he does. However, almost every task is micromanaged, including my tasks. Any email sent out, documents sent out, or website related changes all need to be approved by him. Thus, I am severally hindered in my ability to do anything, because almost everything I do needs his approval.

Knowing that there is no chance to move ahead, and that this is basically a dead end job, I began to look for another job. (I've even talked to other co-workers there, and they recommended to look for another job ASAP). This was my first job full-time job as an engineer, and I am grateful of that, but I don't want to be stuck in this position. I only have 9 months at this job, and a year and a half at another job that dealt with OLEDs, so my experience is still somewhat towards a beginner level. I'm trying to improve my resume, by learning more abilities which chemical engineering companies look for. But as a chemical engineer, I'm not entirely sure what skills I should be working towards.

So my question(s) are, what skills or knowledge should I be working towards to strengthen my core as a chemical engineer, or as an engineer in general? The other question is where should I go from here exactly? This position offers very little in terms of experience, and I have a lot of free times on my hands after work. Currently, I'm working on building a 3D printer from kit I ordered online, and I'm working more with CAD systems, but I don't feel as if this is enough.

 

[IRstuff]

Hopefully, though, this experience will lead to you ask more questions at your next interview.

Is 3D printing even that relevant to ChE? I would think something related to the economics of processing plants would be more apropos.

TTFN (ta ta for now)
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[MikeHalloran]

The boss micromanages because he doesn't trust you, and probably doesn't trust anyone else, because it's >his< company, and everything it does reflects on him.

I've worked for a guy like that. I liked him on some levels, but never established even rapport, much less trust.

Maybe if you get better at your job, your boss will begin to trust you a little. He probably trusted your predecessor, who disappointed him, not least by leaving, possibly for something else. Almost no job is really new; someone had it before, and left it, for whatever reason. It may be helpful to learn about the history of your job, quietly of course.

One opportunity that you may not have recognized as such is interacting with your customers. If you can appreciate their challenges, and help them overcome those challenges, they will remember you. If they remember you as honest, sincere, and skilled, your name may come to mind when one of their friends needs an engineer.

They may also say good words about you to your boss.

Either would be a good outcome.








Mike Halloran
Pembroke Pines, FL, USA

 

[GregLocock]

I like the second bit of Mike's post in particular. It's the two step. First you move sideways into a position you don't want very much at a company that you have worked with that has the sort of job you are after, and then you apply for an internal transfer once you are working for them. To them you are already a known quantity.

"I only have 9 months at this job, and a year and a half at another job ..., so my experience is still somewhat towards a beginner level"

NSS




Cheers

Greg Locock


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[jonton0021]

@IRstuff
It can be, depending on the job. It's more of a side project than anything, and I enjoy learning about it. However, that is why I'm asking what I should be focusing my time to other skills or knowledge.

@MikeHalloran and GregLocock
I have thought about that, but he won't let anyone talk to customers regarding quotes or information. His son who has worked there for longer than me, only gets to speak to about one or two customers biweekly. Anytime a question is directly directed at either him or me as an individual, he immediately responds, whether we could have responded or not. He knows and has all the connections to clients and customers, and me and his son are not making any of those customer-sales relationships, because he always takes the wheel. I had thought about your comment, and wanted so badly to make those relationships with the customers. But if I did, I would need his approval (as said before, he would then take care of it himself) or overstep his jurisdiction.

And when I meant move sideways, there are no engineering related jobs in the company, after I got a closer look. So applying for an internal transfer would be pointless, because there is no where to transfer to. Even people of 2-5 years haven't moved from their position, because there are no other openings, and the boss prefers to keep them within that area.

I forgot to mention that previous people who have had my job had a very high turnover rate, usually in about 1-3 years. I had talked with other co-workers why, and they had explained that it was for the reasons above. That is why I'm asking what should I be doing to help improve my chances at finding another job.

 

[MFJewell]

I would start looking for entry level positions at larger corporations ASAP. Start with the Fortune 1000 list and go from there. Research companies to figure out what they do and if it may be of interest (and lucrative) to you. Are you willing to relocate? If not, reconsider as it will greatly increase your chances of finding something you want to do and has lots of future opportunity.

 

[Terratek]

You can improve your chances of finding another job by looking for another job .

But seriously, although I don't know anything about a chemical engineer's job responsibilities, I could guess that as with my line of work, there would be no quick way to burnish your resume. You could consider taking some graduate level courses more geared toward what you are interested in, but still in engineering. This would prove interest in a topic to a hiring manager more than a stated hobby. I don't know if that sounds practical to you, but if you don't mind school, it can't hurt. You might end up at your same job for another half a year by the time you apply, get accepted, register and finish a semester, but you'd show a stronger work history in terms of time spent at each employer in that case. Keep applying for new jobs along the way.

 

[jari001]

So what is it that you do in a sales position if you aren't speaking with clients and making sales? Are you just churning out whatever the boss asks you to do? I don't mean to offend, I'm just at a loss for what it is that you do because your boss seems to do all the work. If you don't think you can gain your boss' trust (I'm inclined to think that high turnover indicates that you won't be) to facilitate growth in your responsibilities, you need to be looking for a new job ASAP. With almost 2 years of experience, you are in the right range for almost all entry level jobs.

The core skill of any engineer is their ability to analyze and solve problems. Chemical engineers can work in a multitude of environments so try to find a industry that suits your interests and I'm fairly confident you can find an engineering position in it. I would reinforce your materials knowledge with the guidances that the materials you deal in need to follow (e.g. ASTM, ASME, API, USP, 21CFR etc.) so you can translate the knowledge you are gaining now to a variety of industries; materials knowledge has a wide appeal. I think CAD is a good skill to have, particularly to make P&IDs (I'm biased because I don't know anything about CAD so I think anyone that can use it is great lol). In a customer facing role, I hope you are sharpening your communication skills, knowing how to SELL yourself should be your biggest advantage.

 

[MikeHalloran]

That 'company' is out of business as soon as the sole proprietor suffers a time-lost injury or illness.

You have been, not a 'staff engineer', but a sales clerk, or maybe third assistant clerk in training.

I agree with your peers; you need to get out.

So does the guy's son; there won't be anything left to inherit.

You can take with you whatever technical tidbits you have been able to accrue while there; you may actually be surprised at how much there is.

You've also learned a bit about the sort of boss you don't want to work for again.

Unfortunately, it's pretty difficult to look into a company from outside and see what's really going on. You have to be sensitive to clues you can see while visiting.


<tangent>
A guy buttonholing you and asking "Can you get your old job back?" is a sign that maybe you want to just jump in a cab and go anywhere else. Thanks, Joe Lebzelter, wherever you are. I passed it on to my successor, who left quickly. I am a slow learner in some ways.
</tangent>




Mike Halloran
Pembroke Pines, FL, USA

 

[Compositepro]

Reading your posts I would be inclined not to hire you. You do not seem to know what you want to do in life and do not reveal any particular interests, let alone passion for anything. You are looking for someone else to make you happy. Working directly for the owner of a company may have its drawbacks sometimes but it can be a great opportunity.

 

[jonton0021]

@MFJewell
Thank you for the advice. That is a great idea, and will do that if I cannot find a job in the surrounding area. I am attempting to stay within the region, but it may come down to having to move.

@Terratek
Wait! What! That helps improve my chances at finding jobs! How have I've been so blind! (Lol, thanks for the laugh ). I didn't want to go back to school, and wanted to work off of my current education and experience. I always enjoy learning though, and that is an option if I do end up getting stuck at this job.

@jari001
I think MikeHalloran probably explained it the best, in that I'm somewhat of a glorified sales clerk. I would prepare quotes (gather all the relevant information for the quote), or gather relevant documents to send out, and then have to await my bosses approval before sending anything. Occasionally a new chemical request would come in, and I would be able to read a few research papers on it, but that's about as much engineering as I get to do. And even then, the information I find about the chemical isn't always used. So it can difficult sometimes knowing that the information I find won't even be glanced or used.

With regards to materials knowledge, I only recognized ASTM and ASTE standards off the top of my head. I will be begin to familiarize myself with the others. Thank you for that information. While I do have CAD skills, I've only worked with P&IDs when I was back in College when I was working with CHEMCAD. So it is time to also refresh my P&ID skills as well. Though I know I lack in the department of knowing how to sell myself. I know for a fact that this is one of my biggest weaknesses. This was a real shame as well, because I was just learning to communicate with customers and take down orders. But before I could acquire any of the skills and knowledge for it, my phone line was switch with the bosses, thus giving me very little experience. (This was after the second or third phone call I had with a customer. This also really annoyed me.) So selling skills have improved, just not to the level I would like them to be at.

@MikeHalloran
Yes, thank you. I would tell the son, but he is close with his dad than to me, so going down this road would lead to a very dangerous path. I actually have learned quite a lot regarding how materials are shipped, packed, etc., but to that extent, that's as far as learning new information seems to go. And I would have taken a closer look, if I had other options. This was my first job offer as a "chemical engineer," and I needed one badly. I appreciate the advice though, and I will keep an eye out moving forward.

@Compositepro
Well, luckily this isn't an interview then. And what I wanted in life was to either be a FAB Process engineer, a systems dynamics and controls engineer, or an electro-chemical engineer. But not many jobs seem to take brand new graduates out of college with less than 3 years experience, so I had to compromise at the time. And if you think I'm looking for someone to make me happy, then you would again be wrong. I'm looking for a job that actually challenges me, and puts my engineering skills to use, as oppose to have them rot away in the depths of my mind. I have a passion for learning, so much so that I've began bugging the other departments within my job for more work when I'm finished preparing everything for my boss. But to that extent, it's mainly running to get papers, or double checking some paperwork. Now it's to the extent I'm reading Photonics magazine, to stay informed about my position. I've attempted to move ahead, and take the initiative, and try to learn more. But it just seems to backfire when I decide to send something I'm sure that didn't need his approval. So next time you judge me, why don't you ask? Thank you.

Also, please, I am asking for advice on what I should do to better position myself to get a better job, not what to do at this job. I do appreciate all of the information, however I'm looking for more along the lines of what jari001 gave me (thank you Jari001). If you have more information relating to that, I would be more than glad to hear it.

 

[oldestguy]

Before that new job shows up, remember most engineers are not paying their way during the first 5 years or so. A grunt job maybe no fun, but you'd be very lucky to find a job where you are paying your way and doing the stuff you would like to do. The boss and his son eventually will see that you don't need close supervision and things will improve. I'd grunt it out and keep looking for that "perfect' job that is very scarce. I'll add that leaving with them with the problem of finding a replacement may leave with a bad opinion of you and the next position boss will check back and see that sour taste which may really set you back. I know of one engineer who did just that and that bad "reputation" followed him forever. He never found another engineering job.

 

[rotw]

I noticed that the OP is having side discussions with co-workers to try to probe for some information. I suggest not to do this because my basic rule would be to not trust anyone. I think your first step to get out of this is to secure primarily that "horrible job" that you have now - means for instance do not take any risk of being fired on the spot while you are organizing your escape. Don't even assume that your current boss is insensitive to weak signals from you. He may be very experienced, the very fact that he has set up his own company, that I assume generates profit (your payslip), good or bad indicate this person has certainly solid professional skills and that is respectable. Boss may need to keep things going (business continuity) that's how he might be silent but he may have noticed that you are bored or possibly your lack of ambition. Eventually he may have something in mind drafted already. He may pull on the trigger at a moment you do not suspect and sooner than you think. If you are out with less that a year of experience, the challenge to land a new job will increase exponentially. Bottom line is that you need to be extremely vigilant at what you do, what you say and how you say it even if the job is ugly and you have to keep doing that UNTIL you get out of there. If this means that you need to "play a role" so be it, temporarily of course.
I think it would be difficult to sell your case to a recruiter when you will less of a year of experience; at the very least try to have a round number (i.e. 1 year). Actually you already started your professional journey in the engineering world, because the way you manage your emotions and feelings, your sense of restraint, patience etc. all these character traits or human qualities are being tested and you have an opportunity to grow them; do not ever think that if you land a "real" engineering job you will be exempted from the similar personal challenges. Its real life.

Out of work ethics, or just gentleness - if you are lucky and find a job - help your boss with the transition - try to stretch the notice period to the advantage of your actual company. /edit/

You seem to have some free time, this is a blessing. You don't seem to take the full potential out of it - 3D printer stuffs seem to me more like a hobby, no offense intended - just my take on it.

Good luck.

 

[jonton0021]

@oldestguy
You are 100% with your first two sentences. I would hope that would be the case, but even his son needs approval of anything before things are sent out. I had heavily thought about the sour taste of my leaving for another job, but I just want to say that I've feel like I've been treated unfairly at my job, for other reasons than work reasons. I've asked co-workers to be my reference, as opposed to my boss. And I'm sorry about your engineer co-worker.

@rotw
Thank you, rotw. I have thought about this very carefully. I don't discuss finding another job at work, period. The discussion came up in private conversion with my co-workers outside of work (which incidentally, that same co-worker had helped others escape).

I have a certain type respect for my boss. I respect him that aspect, that he has raised this company from the ground up with his own two hands. It's an impressive feat. However, what I do not respect is, is how he continues to tell my co-workers and I about how he got all of his knowledge from experience, takes all the phone calls and makes all the connections, and then expects us to have that same exact knowledge. There is only so much that can be absorbed from observation. I want to make those phone calls, and experience it. But when will I ever get the chance, if the boss is doing it all the time.

I don't know if I ever gave off the notation that I planned to leave before I had another job lined up, but that was never the case. I don't intend to leave unless I have another offer waiting in hand.

This will most likely be the case, regarding selling myself to a recruiter. Thank you for the advice, but I had a sense that this would be the case in any job that I went to, not just engineering jobs. This isn't my first job, just my first professional job as an engineer. I've deal with worse bosses, but he's towards the bottom.

And I will. I don't plan to leave on the spot, but I do intend to give advice to the next people during the 2 week notice. It's out of respect that they gave me my first job, and to help whomever will be there next.

You are right in that regard. It is just somewhat of a hobby. That's why I'm asking the community if I should be focusing my studies elsewhere.

Thank you for your insight.

 

[rotw]

quoted
which incidentally, that same co-worker had helped others escape<
unquoted

beware of this co-worker.

 

[MacGyverS2000]

I'm with rotw... did any of those former co-workers have knives in their back as they left the premises? There are more ways than one to "escape".

Dan - Owner

http://www.Hi-TecDesigns.com

 

[oldestguy]

As to references, you can list all the good ones, but your past employers will be contacted regrdless.

 

[jonton0021]

@rotw & MacGyverS2000
I actually took the past few days to evaluate him. No, they didn't. What I mean is that he served as a reference for theses people. He himself is actually looking to switch professions. He is going for his nursing degree. That's the only reason he hasn't left.

@oldestguy
Thanks. That's what I plan to do. Though, do they still contact past employers even if you do not give them permission? I know that looks bad, but I just don't think it would be the best right now for them to contact my employer given the situation and my short time being there.

 

[rotw]

nursing degree... Maybe that's why he is so 'caring'...
For one previous background/reference check, my now ex employer contacted only who I told them to contact BUT it needed to be someone who is in the reporting line. By the way, if you land an offer, you could ask that your current employer is not contacted. Argue that you dont want to risk compromizing your current position. A reasonnable HR should make a concession. If not, well this new employer is probably not sending a very good signal.

 

[jonton0021]

@rotw
Lol. I can't tell at this point if you're joking about my co-worker, or if you still think that he is somewhat malicious for helping others.

Anyways, thank you for the advice. I think this would the best way to approach a new employer without compromising my current position. Thank you for the great advice. I really do appreciate your input.