Chemical Engineer, MBA 6

[365che]

What are your thoughts/feelings about CHEs going for an MBA. Should the engineer get experience through working for some amount of time prior to starting an MBA? Should the MBA be done concurrent with working a full time job? What are the Pros and Cons for a CH E specifically getting an MBA? Is it worth it? How well will an MBA launch your career? Is it higher stress in positions which would come from a CH E getting an MBA?

 

[IRstuff]

Could it be that you're also missing the OP's point? It sounds like the OP doesn't especially care what job they're doing...so long as they can maximize their benefit while minimizing their inputs. To many that sounds like laziness, but to me it sounds like the purest form of capitalism. So I think the OP is looking for insights into whether or not jobs that become available with an MBA will be better by that metric than their current role as a ChemE.

If they don't give a flying F what they do, then the company won't give a flying F about them, and they then better be a pretty damn good(bad?) psychopath.

TTFN (ta ta for now)
I can do absolutely anything. I'm an expert!

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[phamENG]

If they don't give a flying F what they do

Your words, not mine. Also not what I meant. Some people aren't driven by what they do, but simply by the doing. I do what I do not because I love structural engineering - I do it because of available options it gives me the greatest economic benefit for the least effort (read: I'm pretty good at it, and people are willing to pay me quite a bit for my services). If something comes along that gives me more time with my family and more money/less stress (and doesn't violate laws/ethics, etc. etc.)...you'd better believe I'll take it. Because, like the OP, I care more about the 'life' side of work/life balance than the work...the I work to live, I don't live to work.

As for the 'company'...I've worked for government, Fortune 500s, small business, and currently own my own small business...I've found that at no level does the 'company' actually care about me. I might have a good relationship with my boss, and the company may have policies in place to retain me...but at the end of the day my presence is an economic decision on the part of management, pure and simple. Am I a better investment than the next guy? Yes, I stay; no, I'm gone. I would have very little respect for any employee who didn't approach it from their side in a similar manner.

 

[365che]

Latexman- What are you implying? Do you mean to pick on me then due to potential age difference? Is that not against the code of conduct within these forums? If it's some kind of inside joke, or another known user to these forums, please clarify.

IRStuff- See, now you actually answered my question. I was looking for pros/con. Now you have outlined them. You could have stated that opinion from the beginning. Now it's clear to me that you have a real strong desire to stay purely technical and within your control rather than be at the hands of the unknown when it comes to dealing with people. I personally don't mind dealing with people and differing opinions. It doesn't frustrate me all that much either.

Phameng- I still think your comment was helpful. "maximize their benefit while minimizing their inputs" is not a bad descriptor. As I said before I'd put my 100% into what ever I do, but perhaps the duties of a management position are just different. The headache of technical problem solving may not be present to the same degree, but now you may have to worry about other things when it comes to the management side. It's a give and take. I did talk with my one co-worker who just got his MBA, a sort of mentor, which I why I thought to begin this discussion. My father is pHD chemical engineer and he's a global director of engineering for a huge chemical company. I won't disclose for his sake. I haven't spoken to him yet about MBA, but he said to get to any notable position of authority within a notable company you will likely need a masters/phD in engineering or an MBA. I absolutely value money. My pops said his bonus is more than my salary and I'm a well paid CH E according to CH E salary statistics... That's something to shoot for right!?

IRStuff again- As I said I would put 100% into whatever role I took on whether it was detailed engineering or management level. Just because you deem it as "less respectable" from an engineering perspective doesn't mean it's not needed or whatever " they don't give a flying F what they do, then the company won't give a flying F about them, and they then better be a pretty damn good(bad?) psychopath." is suppose to mean...

phamENG again- THANK YOU for understanding my ideology and perspective without being narcissistic or judgmental. Just because someone wants bragging right by how well they can engineer on the technical end of things, doesn't mean others care about that to the same degree. I'm like you. I work to live, not live to work. My priorities are family, friends, hobbies, financial stability, and happiness. If someone else values their work or engineering capabilities over those other things, then good for them, but don't assume that others should live their lives that way.

 

[365che]

IRstuff- I'm trying to understand why you're so bitter and referring to me, who you know nothing about, as a psychopath. I don't appreciate that. Did a manager really hurt your feelings in the past? There is a proper way to communicate with other adults. You simply could state your opinion about MBA and why it is or isn't for you without projecting bitterness specifically towards me. I'm only asking for opinions, I haven't made up my mind regarding paths forward in any matter, and I don't see the need to be labeled and poked at just for asking the question... I've personally seen two engineer achieve an MBA while working concurrently, who then used that to boost themselves to a higher paying position with more accessibility towards what they want to do.

I do not understand your second point. It is rather incoherent babbling as far as I'm concerned. I graduated with a 3.6 from a top end CH E curriculum. The lowest grade I achieved in a CH E course was a B+.

Find the source of your anger and work on it bud.

Lastly I was born, raised, and still reside up north

 

[Latexman]

Latexman- maybe there is a generational gap between the two of us, but I have no idea what you're talking about.

Latexman- What are you implying? Do you mean to pick on me then due to potential age difference? Is that not against the code of conduct within these forums? If it's some kind of inside joke, or another known user to these forums, please clarify.

You are the only person talking about age/generation gap; not me. Don't be so paranoid, dude. I didn't mean anything personal. You've been on this site about 1 month, and I've been on it about 19 years. As such, I know SNORGY comments on MBA posts somewhat frequently. I also know he is decelerating on Eng-Tips and rounding out the summer tour in Canada with The Canine Stars at the moment, so he may not post, ever. But, with the Search tool you have everything you need to figure out what I'm referring too. And, since you called me an old man, "Is that not against the code of conduct within these forums?", I'm not feeling obliged to tell you anymore.

Good Luck,
Latexman

 

[IRstuff]

referring to me, who you know nothing about, as a psychopath.

I'm not referring to you as such; I'm saying that if you are a "C" worker, you will not advance very far, The alternative in that case is to be psychopathic and manipulate your way to the cushy jobs.

TTFN (ta ta for now)
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[SWComposites]

I may be cynical, but used to proudly work for one of the very top engineering companies in the world that has been utterly ruined by MBA types. And very few engineers with MBAs continue to do good engineering, in my experience; however some MBAs may be good managers.

 

[365che]

Latexman- No one appreciates when someone says a random comment that the receiving party is not meant to understand, then when asked the person just says "I figured it would be over your head". That usually implies you having a feeling of intellectual superiority, there is a generational gap on the topic, or it's an inside joke. When you've been asked and don't tell, you only leave room for assumptions. I wouldn't call such a reaction, paranoia. Don't know what to tell you. It's really not a big deal though and you've answered my question. I figured it may have been another forum user with such a name.

IRStuff- 10-4 I understand what you meant now. I think it's important to put your all into whatever role take on, regardless of its technicality. Your performance speaks louder than your words to most people is what I've seen around here. I think perception is the #1 thing though at our plant. The guy who shows up late and leaves early has a horrible perception even if he works hard and gets a lot done. The guy who gets here early and leaves late is seen as a hard worker, even if he's twiddling his thumbs the whole day. Perception and Performance are my most important considerations at the moment.

SWComposites- I understand now that there is a very split perception on those with MBAs and that overall people with them are perceived as useless. I think I would probably look for ~5 years of experience before I'd start a concurrent MBA program, paid for by the company, with explicit short term/long terms plans from the company to utilize me in a new capacity once I receive the degree. I'll have to do some more research and see how I feel by that 5 year mark. I love the engineering I'm doing now, as a project engineer, but I'm sure there are greater opportunities out there to strive for.

 

[CWB1]

What is a JD? Yes my employer would pay for the MBA. Are the career path potentials not worth it?

Juris Doctorate - an attorney's law degree. MBAs may have been the rage 20 years ago but today they have fallen out of favor even among executives IME vs more useful degrees, particularly in law or finance. JMO but I believe a JD will open far more opportunities for an engineer regardless if they stay in core engineering (we all deal with regulation), move into management, or become a sole-practitioner.

Most of the engineers with MBAs I have worked with have not been promoted to management, nor can I think of any whose MBA did anything significant for their career. IME engineers become managers either bc of engineering accomplishments or office politics, not education per se'. I had the same experience in both undergrad and postgrad business courses. To be polite, most engineers had higher levels of math in high school than the majority of those students ever took, so the coursework was a fairly simple introduction to various aspects of business. If you spend a few years as an engineer working closely with contract engineers/consultants and earn a few PM certs then you'll be more knowledgable.

 

[TheTick]

I was seated on a shuttle next to a lawyer, making small talk. I said I once considered law school.

"Good thing you didn't.", he said.

I said I was interested in patent law.

"That's different. That's like printing your own paychecks.", he quipped.

 

[phamENG]

CWB1 - are you aware of any law degrees that are friendly to professionals with existing careers? I considered going for a JD, but all the schools near me (I'm a sucker for sitting in a classroom) required full time classwork and prohibited students from holding a job - though I think one allowed legal internships with a cap on hours/week. Makes it hard when you're building an engineering career/business...

(perhaps it's just deja vu, but I suddenly feel like I've asked this before...)

 

[365che]

CWB1- That's interesting. I wonder if that trend is changing... I've only been in the industry now for 3 years post college and I've seen two people achieve MBA and move up the ladder to higher positions as a result. Maybe it is different for chemical engineers working at chemical plants compared to what you are use to?

TheTick- lol that's funny, thanks for sharing.

 

[phamENG]

365che - keep in mind that you're getting a narrow slice of a very wide swath here (that was intentionally ambiguous and counter intuitive). It's very likely that two chemical engineers will have vastly different career outcomes depending on 1) location 2) size of company 3) company management 4) market sector 5) growth opportunities 6) available mentors 7) virtually any other variable you can think of. So when you consider that, in this forum, you have (broadly speaking) engineers that work in automotive design, aeronautical design, product development, government, building design, oil and gas, etc....there's a pretty good chance that none of our individual experiences will actually line up with what you will see. CWB1 may work for a company that doesn't value MBAs...there are quite a few out there. Others love them. I'm sure the same variation exists within chemical engineering and the companies that employ chemical engineers.

Do you like the company you work for, and would you want to move up within it? If the answer is yes, then your best bet is to schedule interviews with several people in possible positions - technical, executive, managerial, etc. - and find out what they do, how they do it, and what it takes to get there and stay there. Only then will you know which role fits your particular goals the best...and then you can pick the degree that will help you get there. You may even get some brownie points for taking such a detailed interest in how the company runs and how you can grow within it.

 

[CWB1]

At the risk of getting stuck in the do-loop again, it depends on your goal.

Last I knew there were two non-traditional options:
1. Online-only JD programs, none of which are accredited by the American Bar Association. In exactly one state (CA) you can sit for the bar exam without an accredited JD. Once you have practiced in CA you can then apply for a license elsewhere. For someone who wants to jump into a full-time career as an attorney and doesnt live in or very near CA this is likely a terrible option. OTOH, if you dont care about being licensed or can find part-time telework in CA to fulfill other states' licensing-experience requirements then it might be worthwhile.
2. Part-time JDs. Many of these are hybrid today with classes taught online and only occasional/monthly visits needed to campus. Several schools offer the on-campus portion on either a Fri&Sat or Sat&Sun once monthly. My SIL went through one of these and I took the LSAT intending to do the same before COVID caused my free time to disappear. Now that sanity has returned due to an employment change, I just need to get round 'tuit.

Colloquialisms aside, what is the proper term for a "do-loop?" Circular reference doesnt seem correct to my ear.

 

[phamENG]

Do...loop would be correct if you're a VBA user. Keeps repeating over and over until you satisfy whatever condition you're looking to satisfy.

Looks like there is one private school near me that does part time...looks like it would cost about $250,000 to get the JD from there part time. Nearest public law school doesn't offer a part time program and the estimated total is only about $180,000. More public options would open up if I moved to DC, but I think I'll pass on that. Probably not worth it. But hey, if I win the lottery some day maybe I can do it to pass the time...

 

[IRstuff]

365che, glad we got that cleared up. I think that advanced degrees are somewhat of a crutch, in the sense that if you are truly good at what you do, you'll advance, regardless of your degrees or lack thereof, while slightly marginal job performance might get a boost with an advanced degree or certifications. In any case, I still think that you'd need to see how your company treats engineers with MBAs to determine whether it's worth the effort, or whether a JD might be more efficacious vis-a-vis job opportunities or rewards. For example, while I do not have anything beyond a BSEE, I have gotten to the top of the technical ladder in my company and while I possibly could have done better in the management track, it wouldn't have been as educational or rewarding, except in a vicarious way.

I do think that ChE is ever so different than many other disciplines; in my school, business economics was an integral part of the ChE curriculum, whereas for other disciplines it was an elective. I think that's because a chemical processing plant's profitability is highly tied to the efficiency and economics of the processes, much more so than with other types of engineering.

TTFN (ta ta for now)
I can do absolutely anything. I'm an expert!

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[Ron]

.....What would SNORGY say (WWSS)

You read my mind!

 

[365che]

Update: I spoke with our plant manager. Manages over 200 employees at our site... He highly recommended an MBA or something similar if striving for reaching higher positions such as the one he holds. I think my conclusion from this thread and others I've talked with is that whether you should consider pursing an MBA or not depends on many factors and considerations...

1) Career Goals (stay exclusively technical or move into management/corporate level positions)
2) People Skills (Introvert/Extrovert. Communication. Bold leader vs pushover yes man. Do you prefer working with people or not? Managing people. Do you want to be told what to do, or be the one doing the telling)
3) Company Dependent (engineering firm vs chemical manufacturing)
4) Company Size (small with minimal managers vs larger team requiring more managers)
5) Work/Life Balance (the way it's been explained to me, the guys at the real real top work 23 hr days. On the contrary corporate folks typically can work in the comfort of their home and have more flexible schedules)
6) Motivation/Strive/Resolve (many factors here)
7) Responsibility (Want to have the responsibility to make very high level important decisions that could severely impact the business vs worrying about what pump brand you want to go with for a project)
8) Existing Responsibilities (Get it done before you get married, have kids, commit to extensive time consuming hobbies, etc).
9) Effort (Do you want to deal with the stress, time, effort required to get the MBA.
10) Cost (Companied sponsored vs out of your own pocket)
11) Respect/Bragging Rights (Be subject matter expert or technically savvy in multiple facets vs not so much but more business insight perhaps + higher salary and bonuses)
12) Engineer Type (An aerospace engineer may not have similar experience or options as a chemical engineer.)

This isn't even a comprehensive list. There's many more items to add but that just goes to phamENG point being that there is so much to consider.