Chinese EV refuses to stop 4

[Pud]

'I was kidnapped by my runaway electric car' -

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-67005620

Politicians like to panic, they need activity. It is their substitute for achievement.

 

[DrZoidberWoop]

I think I'm going to start buying up 1970's trucks now.

 

[JStephen]

If you can work it, the ideal solution would be to circle back around by the local dealer for that brand and crash it into their facilities. Then let them sue themselves for the damage.

 

[hokie66]

He was lucky he was not going faster, but luck should not be involved.

 

[3DDave]

" when a police van pulled up besides me and asked if I was Brian and if I was okay, I just yelled 'no I'm not, I can't stop'"

Why did he deny he was Brian?

"He was also asked to hold the power button for a couple of seconds"

It takes 3 seconds, not 2, probably.

''After that, a police officer jumped into my car and did something which seemed to keep the car still."

The police could not move their car as the electric vehicle would keep moving, so they had to wait for the RAC to arrive.

Did it keep still or did it move?

And how did the brakes fail?

Also, jumping from a car is likely to hurt more than picking a ditch to slide into, or getting someone to pull in front. Usain Bolt cannot manage 30 MPH; His record is just over 27 MPH from a standing start.

Expecting the car to shut off while moving because the key is out of the car is weird. That could cause huge problems if the underlying issue was a dead battery in the key or a failure in the circuit board. Plus the range on the key might be enough that keeping it in the nearby van was insufficient to lose contact.

More support for manual transmissions - or at least a clutch.

 

[JStephen]

Best stopping place might be a long hedge, that would be an interesting challenge to sort out. Or maybe a long muddy/sandy spot. I'm reminded of the runaway truck ramps.
Pulling the cop car in front, letting them ease together to make contact, then really stomping on the brakes might do the trick with minimal damage.
Jumping from the car- bad idea at any speed, unless it's headed over a cliff or something. At 30 mph, you might survive unscathed, but could just as easily be killed by it, too.

 

[1503-44]

I saw some report of an EV refusing to do anything except return to its starting point. Despite several attempts, it just went around the block and parked itself where it was to begin with. Maybe it didn't want to lose its parking space.

--Einstein gave the same test to students every year. When asked why he would do something like that, "Because the answers had changed."

 

[human909]

I would question whether the driver fully depressed the brake pedal. Most electric and hybrid cars have electronic braking (regenerative) for a significant portion of the brake pedal travel. So it is readily believable that partially depressing the brake pedal could be ineffective in the case of a severe electronic issue.

However I would expect and hope that there is a direct connection from the brake pedal to the master cylinder and thus a heavy press of the brake pedal should still brake the car. Of course this is assuming they have a sensible design on the brake pedal connection to the master cylinder.

This doesn't seem like it is the first time:

https://www.mgevs.com/threads/brakes-failed.3473/

 

[LionelHutz]

They thought moving they key far enough from the vehicle would cause it to shut down. The problem is that mfgs anticipate you leaving the key in the house and leaving with the car so they program in warnings and such so you can turn back and get it instead of walking back while the car is sitting in the street dead.

I suspect this is like the Toyota runaway throttle in that he didn't stomp on the brakes as hard as possible and keep holding until it stopped. Obviously, the brakes on the police van were able to bring it to a stop so it wasn't driving the motor so hard that normal brakes couldn't hold it back.

Maybe the officer turned on the parking brake?

I wonder if an investigation would find the software is like Toyotas software was at the time (and might still be). A bunch of jumbled piss-poor coding.

 

[3DDave]

The complaint about Toyota's software was an inability to detect cosmic-ray flipped bits; the failures demonstrated required decapping the computer and placing wires to create connections that aren't part of the computer.

No one found any instance of this happening.

 

[CWB1]

An unfortunate side-effect of EV sales is the loss of engine emissions' regulation as a major market barrier. Without that burden and the accompanying media spotlight we can expect to continue to see issues as EVs flood onto first-world roadways from small third-world manufacturers.

 

[IRstuff]

So it is readily believable that partially depressing the brake pedal could be ineffective in the case of a severe electronic issue.

If the software is stuck in a do-loop of constant speed with no response to accelerator nor START button, why would you think it's going to respond to braking commands? This is why the military often overspends in software development, since "fail-safe" is often a mandatory requirement. System "zeroize" which is needed to wipe the computers to prevent capture is often completely isolated from any software whatsoever. THAT is the way car ECUs should be designed, but they're not.

This sort of thing isn't even uncommon in airplane development; I looking at you, 737 Max. Software ignoring pilot commands; sounding familiar? Killed way more people than even errant airbag shrapnel.

TTFN (ta ta for now)
I can do absolutely anything. I'm an expert!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BKorP55Aqvg

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[SnTMan]

...we can expect to continue to see issues as EVs flood onto first-world roadways from small third-world manufacturers.

Surely our government's regulatory mechanisms will protect us from that. Surely

The problem with sloppy work is that the supply FAR EXCEEDS the demand

 

[3DDave]

The MAX software obeyed every pilot command as evidenced in the FDR outputs from all three incidents. There was no question about the software design after the release of the Lion Air preliminary report. The systems architecture failure was allowing the AoA system to generate "valid" but incorrect values and for the SMYD to generate a false stall warning.

The more I consider the described symptom it seems like a failed pedal position problem - either a sensor generating "valid" but incorrect data or something blocking the pedal from returning all the way which would tell even redundant sensors the driver was requesting power output.

The dashboard lit up with faults when he pressed the stop button (which sounds like a lamp test), so the computer wasn't entirely locked up.

"he plugged in the car to do a diagnostic check and there was [sic] pages of faults" - sure - if there is a problem then it might get logged 50 times a second. It doesn't indicate there are pages of separate problems. For a while Tesla was logging normal operating data (no errors) at a rate that killed the flash memory chips. The amount of messages says nothing about the event.

Note the lack of interest in what the faults were? Could just be his previous denials for subscription services or browser history.

"He (RAC) said he had never seen anything like it and decided he was not willing to turn the engine on to see what was wrong."

How many electric vehicles did the anonymous Royal Automobile Club helper work on prior to this? It has no gas cap, can't be jump started, and the tires have air. Not much for RAC to deal with.

 

[human909]

If the software is stuck in a do-loop of constant speed with no response to accelerator nor START button, why would you think it's going to respond to braking commands?

Because a foot brake is mechanical actuator with a direct connect to the hydraulic braking system with built in mechanical redundancies!

You can have all the software issues you want but the brakes will still engage. To my knowledge pretty much all cars, likely all, do not have completely electronically controlled braking.

Modern cars have all sorts of braking assists and augmentation. But they for good reason have mostly kept the tried and true mechanical/hydraulic braking system.

This is why the military often overspends in software development, since "fail-safe" is often a mandatory requirement.

By keeping the braking mechanical system automobile manufactures can stay on the side of "fail-safe" regarding errant software. The military and aviation is a complete different beast. If you car stops due to a software but you are stuck at the side of the road, if you airplane stops due to a software bug you will stop, but only after a very hard landing!


Most of cases of out of control cars are due to people not suitably applying the brakes or engaging other emergency procedures. "Suitably applying the brakes" means very hard foot pressure, something most people aren't used to. This can readily occur with 30 year old cars with next to no electronics. If the engine goes wide open throttle not only are you reaching peak power but your vacuum assist on your braking all but disappears as WOT reduces the manifold vacuum.

I've had that occur on a small work truck before. The battery shifted in the mount pushing the accelerator cable into wide open throttle. It was an exciting time for a bit!

 

[3DDave]

With no operational vacuum I wonder what the electric cars use to boost the brakes.

Yeah, a stuck WOT means - make that first pedal-press count so the booster reservoir gets the best shot and don't let up.

 

[TugboatEng]

Electric cars use electric/mechanical boosters.

https://www.bosch-mobility.com/en/solutions/driving-safety/ibooster/

 

[hokie66]

That’s a Bosch system, but I doubt the Chinese use it in those MG’s which are flooding the market.

 

[human909]

That’s a Bosch system, but I doubt the Chinese use it in those MG’s which are flooding the market.

Yep they are everywhere here in Australia. Australia & NZ probably has some of the highest market penetration for MG cars. A brief google supports this.

Europe has plenty of competition from their own manufacturers albeit at a higher price point. Whereas the US likes cars bigger than Chinese appartments so getting sales there would be a challenge.

It would be interesting to see how the quality is. I suspect it isn't great. But nor was Hyundai and Kia 25 years ago or Toyota 50 years ago.

 

[Lou Scannon]

Toyota's brand was already pretty solid in 1973.

"Schiefgehen wird, was schiefgehen kann" - das Murphygesetz