Civil3D and Surveyors (I wish my surveyor would.... I wish my surveyor's drawings were.....)

[jcRPLS]

I am a surveyor in Keller, Texas. We have been using Civil 3D since 2010. I am now in charge of marketing the services of our Keller office.
My goal is to make it easier on the Civil Engineer.
If you had a wish list of the perfect surveyor or survey firm - what would it be?
What about the perfect product (drawing)?
How can the surveyor make his product more engineer friendly?

Do you use Civil3D? Would you prefer for your surveyor to also use civil 3D? If so, Why?
What if it's a site that is less than 2 acres? Does that matter?

Any feedback is appreciated.

Thanks.

 

[fel3]

For me, the #1 thing is rational naming and organization of layers, then making sure the entities are on the correct layers. Even from the same surveyor (actually, the same drafter), I often get different layer schemes from one project to the next and almost always a fair portion of the entities are on the wrong layers. This makes it very time consuming to clean up the survey for use as base mapping.

I recommend using the AIA CAD Layer Guidelines (see

http://www.cadinstitute.com/download/pdf/AIA Layer Standards.pdf

for Version 3…I didn't find the most recent version in my quick online search). This is a very rational layer scheme and once implemented across all your projects, it helps your own survey drafters to better organize the survey drawings. After all, a CAD drawing is data and data needs to be properly organized.

Another thing is to work with the engineers you consult for to make sure your CAD drawings integrate seamlessly into their workflow. For example, years ago a surveyor I worked with many times produced all elevation points with a block that contained the point, the point number, the elevation, and a surrounding "boat" (a five-sided figure that was basically a rectangle with one end "sharpened"). These blocks were created with a LISP routine he had written. All four entities were on the same layer, but I didn't want the point number or "boat" on my base map, only the point and the elevation. After dealing with this a couple of times, I asked if he could modify the block so that each element was on a different layer, so we could freeze the parts we didn't want to show. He made the change (it was quick for him) and all subsequent drawings were much easier for us to work with.

==========
"Is it the only lesson of history that mankind is unteachable?"
--Winston S. Churchill

 

[gbam]

My wish list begins with:

Survey in terms of digital modeling - another words please create 3D break lines that can be easily translated to dtm models. Then supplement the break lines with a scattering of ground shots to tie it all together. We/I have tried to instruct surveyors in our area on this procedure but it is difficult.

Match our CADD platform. We are using MicroStation so should you. I do not care if you work in ACAD/Civil 3D but the final product digital or sheets should be in MS. This may lead to LS firms purchasing multiple CAD platforms if they want to service all civils. We have ran into multiple issues with translations from and to ACAD. This should be the responsibilty of the LS firm and not us Civil Engineers.

Please provide listing of abbreviations with descriptions.

I agree with fel3's list.

 

[jcRPLS]

Thank you, fel3 & gbam, for your comments. Fel3 I will look into the AIA Cad Layer link. We are very strict on following our layer scheme because we know it will be better for the engineer (we use a template). I agree with gbam, we match the engineers format. I work with around 7-10 different civil engineers and they all use Civil 3D. That's why we switched to C-3D. Our switch greatly reduced the time it took them to set up a drawing, by about 75%.
Right now our target client is a Civil Engineering Firm, without a survey department, that uses C-3D (because that is the client who will get the most value from our product). We do not do construction staking, instead we focus on ALTA/ACSM Land Title Surveys (pre & post-construction) and platting. All of our surveys are state plane and NAVD'88.

Thanks, again.

 

[CivilEngAus]

Not a fan of Civil 3D myself although at the end of the day I don't care too much what software is used provided I can use the file easily enough.

Survey has to be 3D (and I want the 3D triangles/surface) as mentioned above with reasonable layer names. All survey shots should be points or blocks with the base point defining the survey shot (so we can easily import to our own design software).

Area of survey doesn't matter; I expect a thorough job whether it is 500m^2 or 200ha.

Draft decent plans. I hate when I pay for a survey and all I get (somehow the surveyor thought it was good enough) is a rough CAD output of the survey shots, no plan, nothing.

With regards to the microstation comment above I don;t agree with that. If a firm wants the file in native microstation format then tat should be expressed in their quote/written instructions to the surveyor.

Need to have sufficient details. E.g. a sewer lid shot is good, but I need the invert also. Picking up a culvert is goo but I also need to know the diameter/size of the culvert.

Most importantly your reputation will stick with you. There are firms I absolutely won't use or touch survey data from (we recommended to the client they get it resurveyed) as there has been problems in the past and it is a pain to work with them.

 

[Pinwards]

A few things to add... Take photos of the site when you survey it. Even your basic cell phone today has an incredible camera, take a few shots while you're on site. Include them with the deliverables. They can be invaluable if there is any question as to what the survey data shows, especially if the person drawing it up is not the same one that did the field work, which is usually the case.

Also, a personal pet peeve. You absolutely cannot just create a DTM/TIN from all the shots you picked up in the field. You have to create breaklines and use them in the surface, so that contours are accurately created. It's maddening to get an EG surface from a surveyor, and then (as the engineer) be forced to go back and retriangulate their surface and flip triangles, because they failed to use any breaklines. If you didn't shoot a road in cross-sections, then it may triangulate from one side to the other, and not reflect the pavement crown in the middle. This will make the profile of said existing road look very jagged, and is not accurate. Learn how TINs work, create breaklines, and use them.

Also weed out non-ground shots, which may require coordinating with the field crew. No, that's not a 3' hump in the existing ground, that is a point that was shot on the top nut of a fire hydrant, so should not be used in the existing ground surface. No the ground doesn't suddenly slope up 6' at the corner of that house, the rod-man just raised it up above a fence to get the x-y shot. Don't use those shots in the surface.

Check available data. Large cities often have GIS data available online, take a minute and check those maps. See if there's any major infrastructure that might not have been obvious from the surface, or might have been missed by the before-you-dig striping. Just because you didn't see any valves for that 12" water main running through my small commercial site, does not mean it shouldn't be shown on your survey.

All surveys should be reviewed by the field crew that surveyed them, before they go out. Compare it to the pictures, check the field notes, and above all try to be accurate and complete.

#

 

[beej67]

I'd settle for getting all the utilities located and inverts I need shot within the first three trips.



Hydrology, Drainage Analysis, Flood Studies, and Complex Stormwater Litigation for Atlanta and the South East -

http://www.campbellcivil.com

 

[jcRPLS]

From the input I have gotten (much appreciated), we do exactly what you guys are saying. Our software is compatible, we are layer strict, we take pictures, use breaklines, on state plane, use only NAVD'88 datum, we return phone calls and emails ASAP, dress professionally, do what we do best ALTAs and platting, compare our data to web info (elevations to city gis - just as a double check, and walk our sites after a survey.

Give me a wow factor! Something great, a challenge. What would be an above-and-beyond thing or service a surveyor would do to make them your go-to surveyor?

 

[Pinwards]

Can you move to Washington state?

 

[jcRPLS]

beej67 - here's how we do manhole cuts in the field
Shoot the center of the lid
Write the point number of the shot on the lid with a sharpie
Do the measure down with a measuring tape that has feet and tenths on the left and then inches only on the right (no foot increments on the inches side - just inches) and note the measurement ie. 8.5'/102"... this gives us a double check

on the drawing the info would look like this

SSMH
Top = 645.2'
Invert = -8.5'
FL 8" PVC = 636.7'

This way you can see the math.

There is a longer story of how and why I came up with this system, and a few more steps that I did not mention...
I have to go back to work.

 

[jcRPLS]

Pinwards - If you get a project in the Dallas/Fort Worth area, Austin area (we're opening a new office in Jan - so excited), or the Abilene area give me a shout.
We'll also service southwest Arkansas.
We also review other surveyor's ALTA surveys for McDonald's, too.

 

[LincolnPE]

We need good point descriptions to be able to tell what we are looking at.

We also need the surveyors to maintain their consistency with the point descriptions throughout the drawing.