Colors on the "blue" prints 3

[CheckerHater]

I have an unusual question (as most of the people on the forum).

As someone who grew up in the times of pencils, paper and poor quality blueprints I am a firm believer into strictly black-and-white linework.

Nevertheless in today’s world you can hardly find B&W printer or copier if you want to buy one.

So my question is: Does anyone see the advantage in using color in engineering (besides obvious applications for Maps and Architecture), and did anyone ever encounter standard regulating use of color. (Once again, not just color to indicate AutoCAD layers, but “final product” print actually made in color.)

I will welcome both: references to actual standards and opinions based on experience.

 

[ctopher]

"I fear the day marketing dictates practices for engineering drawings"
Been there, it's not good...a nightmare!

Chris
SolidWorks 10 SP5.0
ctopher's home
SolidWorks Legion

 

[ajack1]

As a sub contract design office we do what the customer asks for, however if nothing is specified we show iso views as shaded in colour if it helps with clarity.

When you think about how much colour helps in real life it is hard to see why more people don’t use colour on prints. Take a wiring loom in a car as an obvious example following the blue and red wires is not that difficult, following the light grey and the slightly darker grey would be near impossible.

As far as I am aware there is no standard yet and different people would take this to different levels and it is not hard to imagine you would end up with some truly awful drawings, but it is also hard to see there are not advantages as well.

I guess like most things in life it is not black and white but more shades of grey.

 

[tk369]

When working in 3D solids, it's sometimes advantageous to have a color print/copy, especially if you're showing interferences and you have taken a section through an assembly.

In NX, depending on how preferences are set, a section taken through an assembly of parts will show any interferences in "red".

ted kralovic

VisVSA, NX-6, Macbook, iPhone 3GS, among others

 

[tk369]

In response to the question regarding 'color' in ASME Y14.2, the word "color" doesn't show up even once in the standard.

ted kralovic

VisVSA, NX-6, Macbook, iPhone 3GS, among others

 

[tgy76a]

This exact same issue is being battered around our office today, with most of the drafters being dead-set against using color in print-out. We send drawings electronically to clients, and we believe we lose the control over what the final prints may look like, since color is dependent on the printer. My old-fashioned opinion is that it's best to present the design as clearly as possible in black and white, with line weights, cross hatching and carefully placed text, dimensions and leaders. It's much more professional. Once color enters into the presentation, it becomes graphic art, not engineering. A good example of simplicity is the readability of solid text in a text book. It's rarely improved by printing in various colors. Simple black and white makes the most readable presentation there is. "Keep It Simple".

 

[EngineerShorty]

Having come from a company that did use color on drawings, and later moving to companies that did not, I have found color to be extremely useful. The one caveat is that colors should only be used for improving the clarity of drawings, and should not be used for conveying information.

We left all part geometry in black, but used a dark green color (which still printed black on a B&W printer) for all of our dimensions and dimension lines. All notes, centerlines, etc were in dark blue (which still printed in black on a B&W printer). The clarity of the print when looking at it in color vs black and white is night and day.

In that case, the argument that 'My suppliers or customers or shop floor can't print in color, so color is bad' doesn't really carry any weight. If they print the document, they're no worse off than they are looking at any other drawing in their shop. However, if they look at the PDF we send them, they get the added clarity, which is substantial.

Color can also help hilight revisions on a drawing. If you have revisions in red, the eye is immediately drawn to what has changed since the last rev. Once again, the color is not a replacement for rev bubbles or rev blocks, but it adds another level of clarity to the drawing if the person looking at it is lucky enough to be able to look at the print in color. If they can't look at it in color, they're no worse off than they were with any other drawing.

I can't really see any reason against using color other than a bit of a stodgy old-guard attitude of 'I've created and looked at drawings for 30 years, and they've always been in black and white, so they should always be in black and white'.

 

[drawoh]

EngineerShorty,

A basic problem with sending computer files around is lowest common denominator. If you send something the other guy cannot read, either time is wasted finding something he can read, or he does not read it.

As noted above, I assume people have 8.5x11" black and white ink jet printers. I actually do not know if such a thing exists, but lots of people have cheap black and white laser printers. You cannot assume larger than 8.5x11". You cannot assume colour. You cannot assume laser.

Most fabrication shops seem to have 11x17" printers, now. As far as I can tell, they are black and white.

If you send drawings to me at home, I can handle your colour. I cannot handle the tiny fonts on your E[ ]sized drawings.

I remember back when you could not send spreadsheets around. Lowest common denominator will always be a problem when you share computer files. The technology will improve, and the lowest common denominator will get more capable, but by then, you will have new bells and whistles to try out.

The other issue with colour is that lots of people out there do not understand contrast. If you are printing in colour, set your CAD backgrounds to white. People with black backgrounds keep selecting yellow as a bold colour.

If you search around the following two websites, you will see discussions about colour...

Web Pages That Suck

Tips on Designing Cost Effective Machined Parts

JHG

 

[MechNorth]

Ok, so we've seen that people have a trained-in bias for black & white prints. Makes sense, after all that's historically what we had. With the exception of blue prints which were white lines on a bluish background. Still, two-colours only. For the designers on this thread, do you model & detail (annotate) in only one color? Most of you will answer "No". And why is that? Because colours make it easier to separate geometries from notes from dimensions from gd&t annotations. So, it's good for engineering but not for people downstream? The real issue is that our baseline printing infrastructure has not changed to keep pace with CAD. Colour ups the price a bit, which throws management into a tizzy right away. Large-format colour printers are still ridiculously expensive. On the other hand, I've seen enough cases where something was obvious on a colour display but "disappeared" into the background on a b&w printout; this was caught only in fire-fighter mode when an issue arose.

For those in doubt as to the value of colour, you need only go as far as training material and text books. Which do you prefer from a learner's perspective, black & white text & drawings, or colour 3-D graphics?

BTW, I experienced similar grumblings from "board draftsmen" when they had to shift from using a pencil to using a mouse ... no way this would make them faster ... no way it's as accurate ... no way it can keep up ...

Why are people in technology so afraid of taking the next steps forward? Dunno.

Jim Sykes, P.Eng, GDTP-S
Profile Services

http://www.profileservices.ca

TecEase, Inc.

http://www.tec-ease.com

 

[drawoh]

MechNorth,

I really like SolidWorks' executable Edrawings. I save the thing. You load it and look at my 3D model. Since the file is executable, you don't need the edwg software.

Problems:
[ol]
[li]Some people where I work have amazingly old computers, lacking speed and RAM. The Edwgs are barely executable. [/li]
[li]Everyone is fighting desperately to stop virii. Executable attachments to email do not make it past corporate firewalls. [/li]
[/ol]

System administrators are not knocking themselves out to enable my favourite toys.

A lot of people use their computers for email, word processing and some web surfing. They do not need high powered, bleeding edge machines, and they are not assigned them. Back when I was a kid, office machinery was expected to last twenty years. I think we are headed back there. It is easy for us CAD types to create files no one else can read.

JHG

 

[tk369]

RE: @Jim Sykes

Here is a technology story.
I started "on the board" in the very early '70's at a large power-generation equipment manufacturer. Even on the Apprentice Program, I was forced (!) to become a member of the union.

The company planned on installing a Gerber Plotter for the express use of plotting points. At that, the union shouted "STOP! WE'LL LOSE JOBS!" (Heh-heh)

We all know where that went. Plot/print on!

ted kralovic

VisVSA, NX-6, Macbook, iPhone 3GS, Garmin 765T, Garmin Forerunner 405, Garmin eTrex Vista Hcx, among others

 

[ewh]

no way this would make them faster ... no way it's as accurate ... no way it can keep up ...

Unfortunately, this became a self-fulfilling prophesy at some companies. It can be much quicker updating board drawings and associated documentation than it is for some CAD drawings/models I've seen.

“Know the rules well, so you can break them effectively.”
-Dalai Lama XIV

 

[CheckerHater]

It can be much quicker updating board drawings and associated documentation than it is for some CAD drawings/models I've seen...

Back in the time of paper and pencil people who did original design would stay with the company long enough to see the first revision.
Now with the original team long gone, and revision being outsourced to clueless CAD-monkeys… Well, it may take some time :-(

 

[MadMango]

It is much easier now, even more so than just 8mos ago, to deal with color in some circumstances. Change board, design reviews or department meetings, we plug a laptop into the HDMI cable and get full color presentations on a 50-inch flatscreen, or browse our network for the file we need. I can also save my work to color PDFs and attach them to my emails to vendors. It works well 80% of the time. It's that 20% that causes all the troubles. That and ineptitude.

"Art without engineering is dreaming; Engineering without art is calculating."


Have you read faq731-376 to make the best use of these Forums?

 

[dgallup]

This is such total BS. And off topic.

I can revise 1 to 100 parts and every assembly drawing will instantly update as well. Let's see your gray haired pencil pusher do that. Back in the day when we had draughting tables (and were owned by a proper British company, the Prince of Darkness, a moment of silence please) most assembly drawings were NEVER brought up to date to show component revisions. You were just supposed to imagine what the assembly would look like with all the new parts in there. Never mind interference studies and the like. Say what you want but CAD has improved productivity and reduced mistakes tremendously and our documentation on the floor is up to date.

I still have no use for color drawings. That's for the marketing guys with the not so sharp crayons.

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The Help for this program was created in Windows Help format, which depends on a feature that isn't included in this version of Windows.

 

[Belanger]

What a funny post DG! You rail on the folks stuck in the mud of pre-CAD days, and hail the technological advances of today, but then finish by sounding like an old fogey: "I still have no use for color drawings."

I'm just ribbing you in a good-natured way, but those last two sentences sound strange juxtaposed to the rest of your comments! Some day people may be poking fun at the "old" B&W drawings.

John-Paul Belanger
Certified Sr. GD&T Professional
Geometric Learning Systems

http://www.gdtseminars.com

 

[berkshire]

tk369

Follow up to this "Here is a technology story.
I started "on the board" in the very early '70's at a large power-generation equipment manufacturer. Even on the Apprentice Program, I was forced (!) to become a member of the union.

The company planned on installing a Gerber Plotter for the express use of plotting points. At that, the union shouted "STOP! WE'LL LOSE JOBS!" (Heh-heh)

We all know where that went. Plot/print on! "" then.

Now,
I retired 2 years ago. Later I was asked to come back to work for a 60 day period, to help out with a job breaking down component assemblies into detail drawings, and CNC files to be sent to CAM. This was to be a non union job in the office.
The trade union pitched a fit because journeymen had been trained to take drawings and write CAM files for the machines, and this would impact their jobs. How things have changed, or not.
B.E.

The good engineer does not need to memorize every formula; he just needs to know where he can find them when he needs them. Old professor

 

[dgallup]

Belanger

Drawings are a finely tuned highly developed precise language to communicate design requirements. There are many ways to show what is important and what is new or changed without resorting to color. The problem with color (as pointed out else where) is when the inevitable conversion to black and white occurs (and it will when the boss runs it through the copier or fax machine) the color is gone and some lines and text will be fainter and harder to read because it WAS IN COLOR.

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The Help for this program was created in Windows Help format, which depends on a feature that isn't included in this version of Windows.

 

[Belanger]

Loud and clear, man. But it's still funny.

John-Paul Belanger
Certified Sr. GD&T Professional
Geometric Learning Systems

http://www.gdtseminars.com

 

[ptruitt]

I like employing colors to help the design process, but slow down when using them on finished documents. If color is significant, it would be wise (if not imperative) to note that the colors have significance and reproductions must include an adherence to the colors used on the document. This, of course, is obvious for artwork (especially caution and safety related) but also if improperly recognized shades could result in bad parts. So far, colors also cost money in hard copy reproductions, as others have noted. Sometimes color helps significantly. Annotating photographs can be a fast way to document wiring harnesses and color is likely to be a big advantage.

Peter Truitt
Minnesota

 

[TED7]

I used to use a note on the drawing which went something along the lines of "Issued for manufacture". This was printed in red. There was another note stating if it was not red it was not to be used.

Only the engineering department had access to the originals, everyone else could print a black and white PDF or photocopy on a black and white copier. It was not entirely waterproof because people sometimes just ignored it. It did provide some control however.

Dimensions and hatches were also in colour but that had no significance other than being easier to distinguish from the part geometry.

Designer of machine tools - user of modified screws