Company added PE related responsibilities after I accepted 1

[psmpsm]

I joined a company a short while ago where I was responsible for leading system study work for datacenter projects. Note, this thread is separate from my other thread regarding PE stamping (it's a different issue).

After I joined, my manager asked if I would be alright being the engineer of record as well as using my PE to stamp the datacenter designs. Me not knowing any better at the time, I said yes.

Now recently, I found out the business plan for our group and they were supposed to hire a separate design engineer. So basically what they are doing is not hiring that design engineer and instead using me for the same function, essentially getting two engineers for the cost of one.

My question is, given my lack of experience in datacenter design, can I ethically and legally be the engineer of record, regardless of how fast I can come up to speed with the design? My manager said he would help me get through it, but to me that sounds like using a proxy.

I'm not sure what the consequence is for me to say I reconsidered being the EoR. This was not ever mentioned in the interview or even shown in the job description. If it is valid for me to be the EoR and stamp drawings, should I be asking for a raise given this scenario?

 

[MintJulep]

If you stamp it, then you own it. Forever.

Are they going to protect you? Forever?

https://www.thehartford.com/professional-liability-insurance/engineers

 

[dik]

Mint... says it all. You have to be comfortable sealing what you are sealing, because you 'own' it. You have to verify all material with your seal. It may take time, if you are unaware of some items, and have to 'learn' them... at the company's expense.

-----*****-----
So strange to see the singularity approaching while the entire planet is rapidly turning into a hellscape. -John Coates

-Dik

 

[BrianPetersen]

Second guessing yourself BEFORE something bad happens is much better than not doing so.

"Upon further investigation of the potential consequences of XXXXX, I am no longer comfortable with this course of action." Or something like that.

If it wasn't part of your original contract and it's on paper then maybe there's something for an employment lawyer to work with, but any time you feel a need to lay down the law and say "no" you also had better be prepared to walk. A good company will understand your position and understand that it's to their benefit. A bad company isn't one you want to work for anyhow.

 

[psmpsm]

Well, I guess my question is from the perspective of being competent.

With no design experience, even if I feel comfortable, and my manager checks the work, since I have no design experience I cannot declare myself competent enough to be the EoR, right?

 

[BrianPetersen]

Ultimately, it is you making your own decision.

Beware of situations where "you don't know what you don't know".

 

[271828]

If you have "no design experience," then I don't see how you could be comfortable sealing the design.

If your boss can help you to the point that you feel OK with the design, then why doesn't he or she seal it? If he or she has no PE license, then why not? With an engineering education, becoming a PE isn't exactly climbing Mount Everest.

I think this goes beyond whether you can look at the design and decide it's OK. The EoR must be "in responsible charge." That requires that the power balance is such that you really are in charge of what is being done. What if you don't like a lot of it and want to change it? How would that go over?

There's an epidemic of non-PEs identifying PEs to take responsibility for designs. For example, there is a steel design group that is run by detailers, best I can tell. They decide pretty much everything because they're the ones who acquired the job. The PE takes care of a few weird parts and seals everything. The vast majority of the design had already been determined. Thus, if the PE doesn't like what is being done, there's a lot of pressure to leave it as is. The power imbalance is too far off for the EoR to be in responsible charge, IMO. In ethics terms, this is a conflict of interest.

We can't blame non-PEs for this stuff; they may not understand what it means to be in responsible charge. Thus, it's on the PE to be in responsible charge or not be the EoR, IMO.

 

[phamENG]

Somebody else can check your work as part of a QC process, but as EOR you should be confident in your design.

If you're sending it to him to review because you're not sure of your design, then do not put your seal on it. If you're sending it to him because you recognize you're human and can make mistakes but you're confident you haven't done anything unsafe or wrong, then you might okay to be EOR.

But as BrianPetersen says - you don't know what you don't know. None of us will ever completely know that, but it takes time to understand the scope of it enough to stay in your own lane, as it were.

 

[JAE]

Based on various US State PE laws, you are violating the engineering acts if you practice outside of your experience or competence.
The law is set up to allow you, as the PE who's best qualified to judge what your level of competence truly is.

The concern is that you don't know what you don't know in a particular design. If you aren't sure, be careful, and perhaps say no.

 

[Enable]

I know you say that this is a different issue than what's in your other thread but it's really not. Your company has now displayed a habit of pressuring you to use your stamp in ethically questionable situations. Next month they'll probably ask you to do something else that "isn't the same thing" but is still BS. This is not a company you want to work for. I would be getting out now IMHO.

 

[psmpsm]

So, for someone who doesnt have previous design experience in datacenters, can they become the EoR for their first project or is that unethical? I am leaning towards unethical. Even if the manager were to assist and help, that is basically using a PE as a proxy and violates the responsible charge statute because the PE is not 100% responsible for the design decisions. My feeling is that I should ask to gain a couple years worth of experience before becoming the EoR.

 

[AZPete]

Do you understand why the designs must be stamped? Is there a regulatory requirement mandating such? Do you have full comprehension of all of the requirements that the system is subject to? If so, then you have the complete map...now explore the landscape to a satisfactory level of acquaintance. Once you have made that step, your engineering expertise and competence can be evaluated to determine whether you can traverse that entire terrain or require another's assistance to complement. A full, empirical review should be able to give you your answer.

 

[phamENG]

So, for someone who doesnt have previous design experience in datacenters, can they become the EoR for their first project or is that unethical?

This doesn't always work, but it's usually pretty safe:

If you have to ask if it's ethical, the answer is no.