Company Liabilities for Using a Proffessional Engineer 3

[qzpcjg]

I work for a large automative company. At my manufacturing site there is no liscensed PE. We typically hire out our large scale projects that require building modifications. We are always trying to save money. As an Engineer where should I draw the line for getting things "certified" by a PE. As an example I have three projects right now that typically have been "certified" by a PE, 1. A lifting device for moving a component of the equipment, design done by me, manufactured in house with our skilled trades. Usually I would get the drawing checked by a consulting firm PE, then the device load tested after build. 2. We need to tear out a piece of equipment and provide a cat walk for access around where the equipement was, this includes resupporting a deck and installing a catwalk. I did the design work and the drawings, is it required that a PE checks this over and stamps it. 3. We want to relocate a jib hoist from one area to another and mount it on a building column. I did a drawing for this and would normally send this to a PE to have them check it out and makes sure everything was ok. What should an industrial sites liability / legal requirement / ethical position be on these types of projects. Can we save money and trust our own design work? Is there liabilty for the designing engineer if something where to fail? Just looking for ways to save my company money and questioning what the normal practices have been. Any discussion around this topic would be appreciated.

And on a side note is there any training to be had or given to engineers that are asked to do these types of projects?

 

[zdas04]

All of the things you described seem pretty high risk. First, don't several of them require building permits? I can't imagine that you could get a permit for an industrial facility without a PE stamp.

Now talk about liability. Let's say you build the catwalk without a building permit, it happens all the time. Your design called for it to be strong enough for 10 300 lb guys to be on it concurrently with a huge safety factor. Then someone hangs a 25 ton chain fall from it and tries to pull an engine off its foundation. The catwalk collapses and kills the janitor walking by. In the ensuing lawsuit it comes out that there was no permit, no PE, and your name is all over the file. There is a real good chance that your company and you personally have satisfied the standard of "gross negligence". Directors of the company, your supervisor, and you personally could all end up in actual jail for this.

The thing I find funny is that you could even find a PE willing to "check your work and stamp the design". The stamp means that the PE was in "responsible charge of the design". The reason for this is that in your scenario, the PE would have considerable pressure to just accept your design or risk losing a client. He's not in charge of you, you pay his invoices. Him stamping your design is certainly unethical and possibly illegal.

I would certainly contact a lawyer before starting down this road.

David Simpson, PE
MuleShoe Engineering

http://www.muleshoe-eng.com

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[qzpcjg]

At our industrial site we have never gotten building permits, not as far as I know about anyway. Years ago we used to have a plant PE but since his retirement we no longer have that. As far as building permits and PE stamps, and what would require a PE stamp for, what is the standards / laws regarding / common practices. Where can you find documents outlining these standard practices. I and all the engineers that work here would like to follow the proper guidelines, it just seems like the proper guidelines are not obviously apparant

As far as the PE's I have worked with they will generally go over drawings check the design, send the drawings back and I would revise the drawing and send it back -- putting him "in charge of the design" I have done this with Three different PE's without concern on there end.

 

[Ron]

zdas04 is exactly right on each count. Yes, the engineer will have liability for his design. If you don't employ and engineer and you do the design in-house, you and your company are responsible for it.

If you modify the structure of a building in any way, it requires a permit. You cannot get a permit in most jurisdictions without a signed/sealed drawing or report done by a licensed professional engineer.

If you are modifying the building without a permit, you're violating the law. If you design such modifications without a license, you are violating another law.

Not good all around.

 

[patprimmer]

Of course as the OP never said where he was from, we are all presuming this is in the USA. Is the USA the only region where PE is used in this way.

Different countries and even different states have differing requirements, so an idea ow which jurisdiction or jurisdictions may help focus the answers.

Certainly here some things can be done provided it is proved that codes are met by submission of detailed plans for approval then inspection by regulators at various stages of constriction. Other things require an engineers certificate from an engineer with an approved qualification or license.

Regards
Pat
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[zdas04]

Pat,
The term "Licensed PE" seems to be a US thing. In Canada or the UK he would have asked about a "Chartered Engineers", other cultures would have other terms of reference. From the sound of the post I'd further guess that he's from Kentucky or Michigan in the US. Just a guess.

David

 

[Ron]

David...you're right...one or the other.

Pat..you are correct. The term "PE" implies US. Canada uses P.Eng., the UK uses Chartered Engineer, and I believe in Oz the term is RPE. The style of the vernacular and the industry of the OP would imply northern US.

Given that, almost all states subscribe to the International Building Code or their state's modification thereof. That's what led to the comment on structural modifications...

 

[hokie66]

I often see reference to "industrial exemption" in some states where licensing is not required. Does this not apply to the buildings?

 

[Ron]

hokie66...no. Doesn't apply to the buildings, only the products they make.

 

[patprimmer]

So we are pretty sure he is USA, but still a bit vague as to exactly which jurisdiction in the USA and the rules do vary a bit but not a lot from jurisdiction to jurisdiction.

Regards
Pat
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[patprimmer]

Ron

I just think in principle it is up to the OP to make the very relevant details apparent to all.

If I am inquiring about a code that applies to Qld Australia, I should say so instead of simply using the word crikey and expecting you to interpret that hint correctly.

Regards
Pat
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[qzpcjg]

OP is somewhere in Michigan. OP Is has a degree from an ABET university and has 15 years experience working mainly on industrial equipment.

 

[Ron]

qz..thank you for the clarification. Michigan has adopted the 2009 International Building Code. Here is the provision from the code for applicability, taken from Chapter 1 of the 2009 IBC...

[highlight]101.2 Scope. The provisions of this code shall apply to the construction,alteration, movement, enlargement, replacement, repair, equipment, use and occupancy, location, maintenance, removal and demolition of every building or structure or any appurtenances connected or attached to such buildings or structures.[/highlight]

The only exception allowed by Michigan law is for a designated agricultural building.

Engineers licensed in Michigan must be familiar with these provisions.

 

[MiketheEngineer]

While I completely agree with the above posts - real life seems to suggest something different.

Do you think Big-Billion Oil Company located in the middle of PoDunk, USA is going to run to the local building department for a permit on a 60 x 200 shed?? First of all, there is probably no code enforcement in the area. And second of all, they are not going to let some code inspector on their property and slow down their plans. It just doesn't seem to happen - at least from what I have seen. They are far more worried about OSHA or maybe the Fire Department - who can shut them down. Maybe the state should step in - but most don't really have inspectors and surely don't want to upset the tax dollar flow.

That said, yes, the Engineer of Record must and should follow all codes and engineering ethics. He/she is responsible!!.

 

[qzpcjg]

So then as an engineer without a license I should hire all engineering work done by a licensed engineer? Is there code training that would teach me or the other engineers / management what is required when doing work of the nature mentioned above. We all want to follow the correct regulations, on the same hand we need to get work done as inexpensively as possible as well.

 

[IRstuff]

You need to find out from your state's PE laws just what is, or is not, allowed.

California, for example, does allow for exemptions, even for building related activities:
> various exemptions for wood-frame residences and buildings, unless they deviate from building codes
> exemption for building alterations that do not affect structural safety

TTFN

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[qzpcjg]

I have never had any official training as far as codes, and standards but I have been around an industrial facility my entire career, and know what steel and sizes, types of connection, where to weld where not to weld ..... My question revolves around the aspect of what "should we be doing" to do things the right way and to save the company money on high engineering costs just to get a stamp from a PE for the sake of having a stamp from a PE. I would also not want to get my company or myself in a sling with local, state, or federal authourities.

You don't know what you don't know!!

 

[IRstuff]

I'm not getting a warm fuzzy about what you want. You either continue to use PEs, or you, not anyone else, and certainly not anyone here, need to understand YOUR state's and YOUR company's legal responsibilities. If you're not the right person for that job, then you need to borrow or hire someone to get you that LEGAL opinion.

TTFN

FAQ731-376
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[moltenmetal]

To clarify: the US and Canada both have licensed professional engineers. The scope of work and other conditions requiring licensure differ from state to state and from province to province. Generally, if it involves the structure of a building beyond a certain size, most locales in either country require a licensed engineer to be involved.

The UK does not license engineers- they have voluntary Charter membership. Every repairman in the UK is an "engineer".

 

[zdas04]

Yeah, it does vary by jurisdiction. In my city (in New Mexico, U.S.) I had to hire a P.E. to stamp a deck design off my house. When I asked if I could stamp it myself the nice lady said that she thought that would be a conflict of interest. That was a tiny little job that I (as an ME with a P.E.) couldn't stamp. In this jurisdiction the rule seems to be that if it has to withstand any load from any source (e.g., occupancy, wind, snow, or (apparently) birds it has to be stamped. The rules seem to be even stricter for commercial properties (the company that I used to work for was moving some walls in their offices and had to relocate some plumbing, nothing structural, and their permit was rejected because they didn't have a P.E. stamp on their drawings).

David