Company Liabilities for Using a Proffessional Engineer 3

[qzpcjg]

I work for a large automative company. At my manufacturing site there is no liscensed PE. We typically hire out our large scale projects that require building modifications. We are always trying to save money. As an Engineer where should I draw the line for getting things "certified" by a PE. As an example I have three projects right now that typically have been "certified" by a PE, 1. A lifting device for moving a component of the equipment, design done by me, manufactured in house with our skilled trades. Usually I would get the drawing checked by a consulting firm PE, then the device load tested after build. 2. We need to tear out a piece of equipment and provide a cat walk for access around where the equipement was, this includes resupporting a deck and installing a catwalk. I did the design work and the drawings, is it required that a PE checks this over and stamps it. 3. We want to relocate a jib hoist from one area to another and mount it on a building column. I did a drawing for this and would normally send this to a PE to have them check it out and makes sure everything was ok. What should an industrial sites liability / legal requirement / ethical position be on these types of projects. Can we save money and trust our own design work? Is there liabilty for the designing engineer if something where to fail? Just looking for ways to save my company money and questioning what the normal practices have been. Any discussion around this topic would be appreciated.

And on a side note is there any training to be had or given to engineers that are asked to do these types of projects?

 

[qzpcjg]

My base question still isn't being answered. How would I or anyone else know that I need to have a licensed engineer do these things. From a its just the way things are! Well that doesn't cut it. What training or documents exist to tell an engineer this is what you should be doing and what you shouldn't be doing. I definitely want to follow the IBC and all local, state and federal guidelines. But what is it that leads me to hire an PE. Knowing the IBC? And yes I realize that if my name is on the drawing than I am the guy thats gonna get and no I don't trust my company to stand behind me in a court of law. And the same token I want to do as much for my company as I can without spending money on an outside firm just for a PE stamp. Maybe the norm here has been wrong for some time, but would someone know this?

 

[cvg]

Ignorance, willfull dis-regard or lax enforcement of laws does not make it ok to break them. You or your company need to figure out what laws affect them and how to operate within them. Or risk legal action if anything ever goes wrong. The easiest way to find out what is required is to walk down to the building department and ask. They have a brochure for these kinds of things.

 

[qzpcjg]

Thanks for your responses, Didn't help much but thanks anyway, I know I little more than I did before.

 

[Ron]

qz...let's take your question on!

First, licensed engineers are generally required to be cognizant of code issues. In some states it's mandatory. In Michigan, there are no continuing education requirements for licensed engineers (I'm licensed in Michigan, so I know that is the case).

There are training and continuing education courses for building codes(

http://www.iccsafe.org)at

most any level you want and any code or subcode. Standards are different than building codes. You generally have to research those yourself. There are two levels of standards that you need to consider...(1) those standards referenced in the building code (they become part of the code by reference), and (2) those standards required for materials and generally accepted practices for the work you are doing. That's a bit more nebulous and requires research.

How would you know? You wouldn't. If the work done on your building is done by an outside contractor, depending on the extent of the work he would have to obtain a building permit. A licensed contractor is obligated to follow the code, which means they must obtain a permit for construction work.

If everything is done "in-house", then it is likely that no one will ever know until (a) the building is sold and an inspection is done and someone questions undocumented changes (b) a failure occurs and someone gets hurt or there is reportable property damage (c) your insurance company decides it wants to inspect your facility (d) a fire inspector squeals on you, or (e) someone else squeals on you.

 

[steve1]

I'll take a shot to answer your question. I am using the 2006 IBC as reference.

Section 105 states when you need a permit
Section 106 states what documents you need to submit for a permit
Srction 106.3.4 states that the building official is authorized to require that a registered design profession (PE or Architect) be in responsible charge
Section 109 states what inspections are required including Section 109.3.9 for special inspections

So the short answer is that all your questions can be answered by reading the building code. It is up to the building official to decide if you need to have stamped documents and who should stamp them, and if you need a permit.

 

[MikeHalloran]

One choice is to just hire an in-house PE.
Another choice is to contract a PE as needed.
Another choice is to go without a PE and risk the costs and collateral damage to the business if a problem arises.

A choice about risk to the business is a business decision.

That kind of stuff is above my pay grade.


Mike Halloran
Pembroke Pines, FL, USA

 

[qzpcjg]

That's what I was looking for exactly. So if for years we have been doing small projects in house with our own labor we probably wouldn't have been pulling building permits for every little thing. Best thing to do is to take building code class and learn what levels of responsibility we have. Most everything we do structually is PE stamped we just no longer understand why.

I took the EIT exam when I graduated but never pursued getting a license.

Above my paygrade to Mike.

Just trying to understand why we do the things we do

Thanks again to everyone for the discussion.

You can close this thread if you want.

 

[IRstuff]

I think you're missing the point again. The building code DOES NOT tell you anything about the LAW. The LAW does. Just like you need to nkow enough about the vehicle code (the LAW) to pass a driver's exam and drive, you need to know the LAW within your still unstipulated state.

How would I or anyone else know that I need to have a licensed engineer do these things.
>> Read the PE law, or get a lawyer specializing in construction to tell you

What training or documents exist to tell an engineer this is what you should be doing and what you shouldn't be doing.
>> the LAW for legal, the building code for structural

But what is it that leads me to hire an PE. Knowing the IBC?
>> again, the LAW

Maybe the norm here has been wrong for some time, but would someone know this?
>> by reading the LAW


TTFN

FAQ731-376
Chinese prisoner wins Nobel Peace Prize

 

[IRstuff]

Since someone mentioned Michigan, here is the LAW regarding PEs and exemptions:
Article 20 of Public Act 299

More specifically, exemptions and sealing:
Exemptions
Sealing

TTFN

FAQ731-376
Chinese prisoner wins Nobel Peace Prize

 

[tstanley]

There is more to it than the building code. There are also codes for under the hook lifting devices and for jib cranes of any size. In our jurisdiction (Canada, B.C.) it is required by the local equivalent of OSHA that these items be stamped. I know enough about OSHA to refuse to stamp anything for our US plants. I would be surprised if OSHA didn't also require stamping.

Regarding the jib crane, you also have to go back to the original design of the building to ensure that the new column you're mounting it to is also capable of carrying the new load.

Tom

 

[brandonbw]

There is another way to go about this. Go down to the City or County your company resides in, and go to the building and safety department and ask what you need to do.

Of course be prepared if things weren't done right, and you now have brought attention to your company.

B+W Engineering and Design
Los Angeles Civil and Structural Engineering

http://bwengr.com