Confused with licensing

[Kyle223]

Hello all!

First off, sorry if this is in the wrong section, there's so many here.

I have tried to find this answer for myself, but there seems to be such a massive gray area, and many differing opinions out there on this topic.

I recently got a degree in mechanical engineering and have been doing freelance work, mainly circuit board design and 3d printing prototypes for startups for consumer products.

Everything I learned in school taught me that you only need a PE if you are signing off on engineering docs, public works, building's, ect. Most people with a MechE suggest that it is not needed.

So my questions are:
1. Can I form a company that does design and prototyping for consumer products?
2. If so, is it not advised to have the word "engineering" in the company name?
3. If I can't have a company that can do this work, would hiring a PE, and having him have a board seat qualify?

Any advice is appreciated. It is just really frustrating that it seems like I wouldn't be able to do this, because consumer products are seperately regulated, and I'm not doing any work that requires a stamp.

I'm in Florida also.

Thanks!
Kyle

 

[IRstuff]

I suggest you read your own state's laws:

https://fbpe.org/wp-content/uploads/2018/08/Chapter-471-2018.pdf

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[Ron]

Agree with IRstuff....read the law (Chapter 471, Florida Statutes) and the rules of the state board (Chapter 61G15, Florida Administrative Code).

In Florida, if you offer engineering services to the public, you must be licensed as a PE and your company must have a Certificate of Authorization.

 

[Kyle223]

Thanks for the replies! I have definitely read that and was part of the reason for me asking.

471.005 defines engineering as:

"Engineering includes the term “professional engineering” and means any service or creative
work[...] which embraces such services or work, either public or private, in connection with any utilities,
structures, buildings, machines, equipment, processes, work systems, projects, and industrial or
consumer products or equipment of a mechanical, electrical, hydraulic, pneumatic, or thermal nature,
insofar as they involve safeguarding life, health, or property;

So my takeaway from that section is for consumer products, it is only requiring of a license if the consumer product is intended to protect life or property, i.e smoke alarm, fire extinguisher, ect.

It seems incredibly illogical to me that:
1. For me to design a consumer product for a company when the outside company will be the one selling and offering it to the public, and the product will be required to have proper approvals, that I would have to be a licensed engineer. Yet the company selling it to the public would not.
2. If I right now wanted to start a consumer-based company, invent and create multiple product lines, and sell them to the public, I would not need to have a PE, only to have the products meet all needed regulations. But, if I offer that exact same service for an outside business, somehow I am then required to have a PE..?
3. If a Google search is made for "Product design and prototyping, Florida," those companies are required to be licensed engineering firms because they offer "service or creative
work, the adequate performance of which requires engineering education, training, and experience".
4. If someone asked any random person to "engineer" them a new type of pencil, they wouldn't be allowed unless they have a PE..?

Thanks again!

 

[KoachCSR]

While I'm sure you'll find as many opinions on this forum as you've probably already heard, I would suggest contacting your state board directly for clarification (as they'd be the ones to "come after you" should you find yourself on the wrong side of their interpretation).

The Florida Board actually has one of the more helpful websites I've seen - their Contact page gives you direct phone numbers and e-mail addresses to many of their staff directly, including their legal department. I'd reach out to them with your specific details and put the question to rest.

Best of luck!

 

[LionelHutz]

Well, you're reading that wrong. It means that the products must be designed to protect the life, health and property of the public, regardless of the type of product. For example, a poorly designed circuit board inside a poorly designed case of some product could catch fire and burn a house down regardless of the function of the product.

Now, on the other hand if you're doing work assisting other companies with parts for a product then I really don't see the problem with carrying on. You're not offering any of these services to the public.

 

[wroggent]

"either public or private"

 

[MacGyverS2000]

I don't read it that way at all, Lionel. If you remove all of the language not pertaining to what he is designing towards (consumer products), the rule only applies to consumer products meant to safeguard life, health, or property. If the product being designed is for safeguarding a life (like a smoke detector), then you want a PE involved, otherwise, no PE needed.

Definitely something to clarify with the board...

Dan - Owner

http://www.Hi-TecDesigns.com

 

[zdas04]

This is not nearly as confusing as it looks like on the surface. If your company is "holding itself out to the public as an engineering firm" you need to have a P.E. in an ownership/director position. Just "hiring a P.E." doesn't do it unless you are a corporation and you hire him/her as a director, otherwise just having a P.E. on staff isn't enough.

I do all my work for companies (never private individuals) whose resulting output is not going to be used directly by the public (e.g., I don't design apartment houses), so I never use my P.E. stamp for anything and all my work comes under the industrial exemption. But I wanted to call my business "MuleShoe Engineering" not "MuleShoe Solutions" or "MuleShoe Energy" so I got my P.E. It seems like your proposed operation would likely fit in the same category so you have to choose between "Kyle223 Solutions" or "Kyle223 Engineering". The first does not require a P.E. in responsible charge, the second does.

[bold]David Simpson, PE[/bold]
MuleShoe Engineering

In questions of science, the authority of a thousand is not worth the humble reasoning of a single individual. Galileo Galilei, Italian Physicist

 

[IRstuff]

Seems to me that the out is always in " offer engineering services to the public;" if you are scrupulous in paperwork, records, advertisements, etc., and can readily show that you are not offering such services to the public, you meet the letter of the law.

Note also, the law has a separate exemption for defense, space, and aerospace companies.

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[stevenal]

I suppose you could claim your product was designed to not safeguard life health and property. I suspect you may have other problems, however, since such a product is clearly mis-designed and would be a liability.

 

[LionelHutz]

MacGyverS2000 - There is no reason to assume that the word safeguarding only applies to safety related products.

Safeguarding - "protect from harm or damage with an appropriate measure." or "measures to protect the health, well-being and human rights of individuals, which allow people — especially children, young people and vulnerable adults — to live free from abuse, harm and neglect."

To re-word the statement, substitute measures to protect the health, well-being and human rights of individuals for safeguarding life, health, or property.

As a different example. Say you're designing passenger elevators. The elevator is not a safety product, but you still need to provide safeguards (mostly in the form of redundancy) that prevent the elevators from hurting or killing people. You should not be designing the elevators that become deadly it a single failure occurs.

----

As for the OP. At the end of the day, if you don't call your company an engineering company and never claim to provide engineering services and don't try to do public work that obviously should be engineered (designing structures or electrical system plans for examples), then you're most likely OK.

You mentioned 3D printing. I doubt anyone would take offense to you creating 3D models and then printing them for walk-in customers unless the application of the piece is structural and could hurt or kill someone if it failed.

 

[RDK]

What does offering services to the public mean?

It appears that most responders here are taking the position that the public means consumer level, i.e. to an individual.

I think the public includes companies that will eventually produce the designs. If you are offering services to anyone or any company that will contract with you for services then you are offering services to the public, even if you only take on one client at a time.

If you were a wholly owned subsidiary of a manufacturing parent company and constrained by the terms of your corporate charter from soliciting or accepting clients other than the parent company then you would not be offering services to the public or if you were a department of the manufacturing company only designing for in house production then you would not be offering services to the public. Just about any other business model would be offering services to the public.

I also concur with LionelHutz, a building component will have an impact on health and life safety even if it is not a stand-alone life safety component like a fire alarm. All parts of the building comprise a system that will impact health and life safety components.

For example , if you were designing a ventilation system there would be a requirement for smoke control, safety shutdowns, fire dampers etc. in the system. These would impact life safety. Even a normal ventilation system, where you are controlling and maintaining an acceptable indoor air quality system would have an impact on health of the occupants.

Best to check with the authority having jurisdiction and get the correct reply.

Let us know how they respond.

 

[IRstuff]

"I think the public includes companies that will eventually produce the designs. If you are offering services to anyone or any company that will contract with you for services then you are offering services to the public, even if you only take on one client at a time."

This, at least, is an exemption covered in the California PE law.

"For example , if you were designing a ventilation system there would be a requirement for smoke control, safety shutdowns, fire dampers etc. in the system. These would impact life safety. Even a normal ventilation system, where you are controlling and maintaining an acceptable indoor air quality system would have an impact on health of the occupants."

This is a not a product for sale, per se.

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[racookpe1978]

Come back a few steps then: You develop (design) a new shaped wrench to unscrew oil filters.
If the handle breaks off and the broken head injures the user, your product did affect safety directly.

A coffee pot overheats, the handle falls off and the pot drops on the child's head. Safety again will be called up.

A friend was involved a lawsuit about those hand steamers for curtains: Burns, sputter, hot water on the floor.

In GA, you must be registered to offer engineering services as well.

 

[IRstuff]

Those are examples of product liability, for which the recourse is to sue the manufacturer, who ostensibly has product liability insurance.

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[RDK]

But then could the manufacturer in turn sue the design engineer? (Assuming that the design was followed and the failure was a design failure, not substandard material?)

This is why I like the Canadian model where the practice of engineering is broadly defined so that anyone doing design needs to be licensed ( or managing designers or any of a wide variety of job functions that are legally defined as engineering.)

 

[CWB1]

But then could the manufacturer in turn sue the design engineer? (Assuming that the design was followed and the failure was a design failure, not substandard material?)

If the engineer is an employee then there is little/no point. The employee has little money to take, likely has shown good faith following corporate design quality process, and suing employees is a good way of alienating current and future staff. If the engineer is a consultant then sure, they're insured just as any business so the company only has to worry about alienating their supply base. IME, industries tend to be small worlds so barring major losses its not in a company's best interest to sue their suppliers. Therein lies the giggle, consultants are notorious for supplying lousy engineering, many of them being licensed.

In the US, PE law is written to protect the public from paying for lousy engineering. The public's right to do their own lousy engineering is also guaranteed by the same laws. Businesses are a different entity not protected by these laws.

 

[IRstuff]

They wouldn't sue their own employees, but they might certainly fire their butts and provide a "fired for cause" response for any future employment inquiries. In most cases, the company simply sucks it up, particularly when no single employee can be clearly blamed, or if no one from the original design team is even still around. And some of these sorts of things can be pretty huge; I've seen companies suck up tens of millions of dollars of overruns because the original design wasn't manufacturable or testable. And, there's always the feature that doesn't work, and the response comes back with, "Oh yeah, we never got around to testing that one."

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[bimr]

One would think that you are already working with an attorney to start up your business.

Would it not be a better option to address this question to the attorney? The legal opinions stated by engineers on this forum will be absolutely worthless in a court of law.