Is everyone else finding it is common now that trades do not review much or ask questions until they show up on site to start? I had one today that has had drawings since 2022, starts, and now has questions they think we should answer immediately. Egad, what's the deal?
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- Thread starter Brad805
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I’m finding it harder and harder to operate as a contractor. The field is just saturated with people who lucked their way into finding enough quarters for a down payment on a back-hoe and have been rolling along ever since. I'm trying to steer us towards a design-build because of that but those projects for what I do aren't all that common.
To Sparweb’s point though I agree, after two years all with be forgotten. Same for the designer usually! However, if I’m given a set of plans for a project that may go off later I either A) review and ask questions at the time they were provided or B) slate a week or whatever time is appropriate for review before starting and ask my questions then. I’ll never just start and ask questions later. That way lies insanity and heart problems because you’ll have workers on-site with nothing to do when the first obvious thing pops up ($$$ flying out the door emoji goes here).
To Sparweb’s point though I agree, after two years all with be forgotten. Same for the designer usually! However, if I’m given a set of plans for a project that may go off later I either A) review and ask questions at the time they were provided or B) slate a week or whatever time is appropriate for review before starting and ask my questions then. I’ll never just start and ask questions later. That way lies insanity and heart problems because you’ll have workers on-site with nothing to do when the first obvious thing pops up ($$$ flying out the door emoji goes here).
- Thread starter
- #5
This is an owner that has been terrible since it started. They are acting as their own GC and hire trades as/when they need to do the work. They think they are saving $$ by getting these awful tradesman (cheap), but they have added over a 1yr to a project that is not complicated for an organized contractor. This is the last piece of the project that was delayed for the winter. In reality the concrete trade likely priced this last part of the project last fall. The concrete trade had all winter to look at drawings, but alas, they waited until they got here and started work to really look and ask meaningful questions. Frustrating. We have a fairly selective group we work with, so this is probably the last of this type. I was curious if this is a common trend. It seems to be getting worse.
I would agree this is becoming more and more common as well.
It's becoming more and more common to get shop drawings without contractor reviews or just rubber stamping and seeing a large increase in the number of shop drawings; some of which is being drive by some jurisdictions starting to require more shop drawings up front for permitting and then it being changed later or because some jurisdictions are only accepting reviewed without notes.
CA has always been hard to deal with and it's definitely getting worse for the same fees that you are lucky to break even on.
It's becoming more and more common to get shop drawings without contractor reviews or just rubber stamping and seeing a large increase in the number of shop drawings; some of which is being drive by some jurisdictions starting to require more shop drawings up front for permitting and then it being changed later or because some jurisdictions are only accepting reviewed without notes.
CA has always been hard to deal with and it's definitely getting worse for the same fees that you are lucky to break even on.
SWComposites
Aerospace
well pretty soon you all will need to learn Spanish in order to communicate with the trades.
I just find that most people are not doing their job anymore. It's top to bottom industry problem. People say they will do the work.... then just not do it and pass the buck.... and if you think design-build will be any better.... I got news for you, it's all the same.
I would bet, most people who "rubber stamp" the drawings don't have a clue what they are looking at.
I would bet, most people who "rubber stamp" the drawings don't have a clue what they are looking at.
My biggest gripe right now is design-build. Every client we're working with is trying to use design-build as a means to fast track construction and handwave the actual engineer/process design portion. For a copypaste of a grocery store this may work, for a new industrial process not so much. Clients willingly forget the only real schedule savings from design-build is not bidding out to contractors.
But that's where the money is so we get the shaft and get told to figure it out/deal with it.
But that's where the money is so we get the shaft and get told to figure it out/deal with it.
Interesting on the design-build front. My situation is rather different since I am also the contractor so when I do design-build they mostly to go exceedingly well. I don't think I would do a design-build (as an engineer only) for another contractor unless I was highly confident in their capabilities. For me it's the opposite where Design-Bid-Build tend to be a horror show these days.
I think what we're getting at here is that it's turtles all the way down.
I think what we're getting at here is that it's turtles all the way down.
I'd buy that. Clients want things faster and cheaper and no longer have the technical people that know the hurdles/constraints of designs. Contractor labor force expertise is in the pits. Engineers are getting told to make abundant assumptions due to lack of data; senior folks have left without passing down knowledge.
We're having a good time.
We're having a good time.
canwesteng
Structural
A good design-build can go well, but a good design-builder might find themselves undercut by a bad one, and that's where you see issues come up. Easy enough to justify not going with low bidder for engineering services which might increase project costs 1-2%, less so when you are dealing with real costs in the design-build contract.
- Thread starter
- #13
My experience with design/build is more along the lines of Enable's. I have worked with most of them for 15-20years. I usually find out which of their site leads will be in charge of the project, and we can have intelligent conversations during the design phase. There have been a few of late that have hired unskilled project managers, and that ruins the process.
Another question that comes up in situations to me is why are we not the ones organizing and getting the work done? Are we engineers too risk averse for that type of work? I see far more GC's retire with loads of $$ than us.
Another question that comes up in situations to me is why are we not the ones organizing and getting the work done? Are we engineers too risk averse for that type of work? I see far more GC's retire with loads of $$ than us.
Supplier reviews should rarely happen much ahead of the work. The supplier should want to wait to ensure they're working off the latest prints/details and both the supplier and engineer should want any discussion/explanation/Q&A/sketches to be fresh in the supplier's mind while working.
IME the trades have undergone a real renaissance over the past 15-20 years and likely never been better. 30 years ago it was common to encounter tradesmen with no formal education/training, little knowledge or skill beyond what they'd seen/done locally, and a bad attitude bc the trades were (rightfully) disrespected as a fallback for those who failed in other careers. Consequently, the quality of both their work and guidance to customers sucked, professionalism was lacking, and there was real aversion to technology. Today those folks are few and far between. Most tradesmen have degrees and multiple certs and the trades are a respected career choice. Regardless if you ask a plumber or machinist, they can speak very well about modern technology and efficiency bc they live it daily, and those that cant find another career.
Engineering OTOH has hit a low-point in recent years. We're spoiled by low-cost, easy-to-use modern technology yet incompetent luddites abound and are often running engineering depts bc they were "next in line."
IME the trades have undergone a real renaissance over the past 15-20 years and likely never been better. 30 years ago it was common to encounter tradesmen with no formal education/training, little knowledge or skill beyond what they'd seen/done locally, and a bad attitude bc the trades were (rightfully) disrespected as a fallback for those who failed in other careers. Consequently, the quality of both their work and guidance to customers sucked, professionalism was lacking, and there was real aversion to technology. Today those folks are few and far between. Most tradesmen have degrees and multiple certs and the trades are a respected career choice. Regardless if you ask a plumber or machinist, they can speak very well about modern technology and efficiency bc they live it daily, and those that cant find another career.
Engineering OTOH has hit a low-point in recent years. We're spoiled by low-cost, easy-to-use modern technology yet incompetent luddites abound and are often running engineering depts bc they were "next in line."
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