Copper Projectile - Raw Material 1

[BrittToolEngineer]

Greetings,

I am just reaching out to anyone who may have knowledge of the best supplier for raw material rod in pure copper. I need the best pricing. Does anyone have experience in this area? We are going to make projectiles for bullets.

Thanks,

Brent

 

[SwinnyGG]

The question is not why, it's "why not".

...............because pure copper is hard to source in useable stock sizes, difficult to machine, and offers no performance benefit compared to other alloys which have neither of those problems.

It's also highly ductile and likely to foul rifling at a high rate.

 

[ornerynorsk]

Hard to source . . . you're kidding right??? As far as performance benefit/ductility, perhaps this is the actual property that is being sought that other alloys may not have. If I understand the OP's intent correctly, this is precisely why some other manufacturers use copper in a fragmenting/segmenting type of projectile. Fouling is not a primary concern in defensive and high lethality rounds, and even at that, can be mitigated through several means.

It is better to have enough ideas for some of them to be wrong, than to be always right by having no ideas at all.

 

[WKTaylor]

I suspect that electrical grade copper might work well in this application.

I am concerned that a solid 'pure copper' bullet would excessively deform/distort when fired thru a steel-rifled barrel under normal chamber pressures. Bullet distortion will lead to an unbalanced spin and de-stabilize the projectile. Distortion may be less of an issue, IF: this bullet will be fired thru a 'smooth-bore gun barrel', or if an obturator band is employed to spin-it-up while avoid raw bullet sliding-friction contact with barrel-rifling

Perhaps a hybrid bullet could be made using a bronze jacket swaged/brazed over a pure-solid copper core.... or a pure-sintered copper core. OR sinter/flame-spray a bronze alloy to the exterior of a pure copper bullet.... including the base.

I think Cu-Be alloy was used as a heat shield material in early ballistic missile tests... until other materials evolved into much lighter heat-shields for warheads.





Regards, Wil Taylor

o Trust - But Verify!
o We believe to be true what we prefer to be true. [Unknown]
o For those who believe, no proof is required; for those who cannot believe, no proof is possible. [variation,Stuart Chase]
o Unfortunately, in science what You 'believe' is irrelevant. ["Orion", Homebuiltairplanes.com forum]

 

[MacGyverS2000]

TIL "o-ring" is short for obturating-ring. Cool...

Dan - Owner

http://www.Hi-TecDesigns.com

 

[BiPolarMoment]

Solid copper projectiles have a lower cross-sectional density, so a bullet for a given caliber will be longer than if it were lead-core and equal in mass. This allows a shape that has more gradual curves and better ballistic coefficient without sacrificing velocity. It also allows for a projectile that deforms to a larger cross-sectional area when it impacts the target. Again, all without sacrificing velocity.

All of this being true without requiring the rifle be specifically chambered for this longer bullet? Unless there is sufficient room in the jacket to simply seat the bullet further without running out of room for the charge? Just a point of curiosity, I don't have anything to add.

 

[IRstuff]

""o-ring" is short for obturating-ring"

I'm tempted to think that is coincidence, as I've never heard one used in place of the other. One major distinction is that the obturator band is what spins up the projectile without the sliding friction of full surface contact of the projectile in the barrel. The obturator band is often referred to as the "rotating band" in military specifications.

TTFN (ta ta for now)
I can do absolutely anything. I'm an expert!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BKorP55Aqvg

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[SwinnyGG]

Changes in projectile length are usually accommodated by changes in the finished press depth of the projectile into the cartridge case.

The case dimensions are important, as is the finished assembly overall length, so that the ammunition will feed properly. How deep the projectile is pressed into the case matters very little, as powders are power dense enough these days that the cartridges are never full.

 

[MacGyverS2000]

As is often the case in threads like this, the OP has not returned since his initial day of posting...

Dan - Owner

http://www.Hi-TecDesigns.com

 

[Don56]

And Cu bullets in California are EPA compliant. They do not lead to lead poisoning in your adversary

 

[IRstuff]

And no blinding of your adversary with your green laser sight, prior to shooting them.

TTFN (ta ta for now)
I can do absolutely anything. I'm an expert!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BKorP55Aqvg

faq731-376 forum1529 Entire Forum list

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[dik]

WKTaylor:
The effects of rifling on a copper bullet would be no different than the deformation on a normal bullet and would have little effect on stability.

jgKRI:
For handloaded rounds for targets I used to set the bullet so that it just engaged the rifling. The rounds were placed into the chamber and could not be fed through a magazine... much too long.

I used to have a 3.7" shell and the steel projectile had a copper band about 1/4" thick by 4" to deform and grip the rifling.

Although toxic, can you use mercury? When I was younger, I made up a bunch of mercury rounds and just incredible expansion... like you'd never believe.

Dik

 

[WKTaylor]

Dik...

Based on my research, the [current] specification for [military] Bullet Jacket cups is ASTM B131 Standard Specification for Copper Alloy Bullet Jacket Cups, which explicitly specifies copper alloy UNS C22000 as 'the standard' for military bullet jackets. I suspect that mot bullet makers conform with the intent of this spec +/-.

Any other copper alloys would require comparable ballistic, wear-testing, etc to ensure internal and external ballistics; and rifling wear-life in [typical] 4140 or 4150-ORD ~HT150 or equivalent 4xx CRES HT150 barrels... bare minimum.

Regards, Wil Taylor

o Trust - But Verify!
o We believe to be true what we prefer to be true. [Unknown]
o For those who believe, no proof is required; for those who cannot believe, no proof is possible. [variation,Stuart Chase]
o Unfortunately, in science what You 'believe' is irrelevant. ["Orion", Homebuiltairplanes.com forum]

 

[MadMango]

Maybe related...

"Art without engineering is dreaming; Engineering without art is calculating."

Have you read faq731-376 to make the best use of these Forums?

 

[BiPolarMoment]

MadMango: is that from taofledermaus's youtube channel? I know he's tested a bunch of really oddball rounds.

 

[MadMango]

BiPolarMoment, no, this was from an article about Franklin Armory and their new Reformation Rifle, having straight rifling and shooting "footballs". A copperclad round here would be very inaccurate I think.

"Art without engineering is dreaming; Engineering without art is calculating."

Have you read faq731-376 to make the best use of these Forums?

 

[DAVIDSTECKER]

Based on the calibers originally posted this bullet is coming on strong.

 

[DAVIDSTECKER]

This link should work.
The Ballistics gel video's are amazing.

 

[WKTaylor]

DAVIDSTECKER...

My company web-browser won't let me get anywhere near the Your embedded link... acted like it was 'radioactive'.

Please extract/post a photo or info to the ENGINEERING.com 'attachment' link.

Regards, Wil Taylor

o Trust - But Verify!
o We believe to be true what we prefer to be true. [Unknown]
o For those who believe, no proof is required; for those who cannot believe, no proof is possible. [variation,Stuart Chase]
o Unfortunately, in science what You 'believe' is irrelevant. ["Orion", Homebuiltairplanes.com forum]

 

[byrdj]

DAVIDSTECKER...
How about a link to that square tipped bullet

 

[DAVIDSTECKER]

The first post I boned, did you try the second post?
If it still doesn't work, Google Extreme Defender and Extreme Cavitator.