Copying sealed PE work for personal records 4

[pldpe]

Are you allowed to retain a copy your own sealed work for your personal records? What about if you change jobs? Can you take a copy of the work you produced with you (assuming it is not proprietary)? Am I not still responsible for the design whether I work for Company A or Company B? What if I want to use portions of that design or detail in another job with another company. It seems that there is nothing new under the sun especially in the civil/structural world, but what is the limit on taking work with you? Thanks in advance.

 

[zdas04]

In this world no one gets what they deserve, they get what they negotiate. There is nothing wrong with keeping a copy of what you stamp, in fact it makes good sense from a CYA standpoint.

As far as taking the files with you when you leave, that is a negotiation. If you leave with the files without having Firm A's blessing then you are stealing their product and should be prosecuted, certainly your PE lisence should be revoked. If they agree to your taking them, then you need to closely follow any restrictions that the may have placed on the use of the files.

David

 

[rcooper]

On my last day at my last company I took a 4Mbyte memory stick into work. I asked my manager if I could download pictures of the sites I had completed. He said I could download any of the drawings and documents I had produced and could re-use, so long as they weren't commercially sensitive. After all, they were still in my head so I could reproduce them if necessary.

I think the key is, ask. If your company says yes, then take copies with you. If they say no, then don't. In the UK we don't have the issue of PE stamps, so I don't what additional implications that has.

 

[BJC]

I think in most jurisdictions your required to keep copies. Your on the drawing and if there's trouble in the future people may come after to you to answer questions. In the worst case you may be sued. If the company won't let you have a copy then don't seal them.

 

[Ashereng]

BJC,

I would like to differ.

In most companies, I am NOT allowed to take any documentation without permission. They consider it theft.

In most jurisdications, the COMPANY is required to keep records. That is why they have record retention policies and a documents control group.

I have had relative success at taking "non sensitive" and "non proprietary" documents with me when I leave the employ of a company. I have also had success asking for documents AFTER I had left, to use on my next job (obviously, the non sensitive and non proprietary type). People are pretty good about sharing the "common" stuff.

pldpe,

Having said that, ask your company whether you can take your stuff. Take what they give you permission to. Give back what they say you can not take.

In case of a lawsuit, chances are, your lawyer will subpeona the drawings from your company.

If your company has changed the drawing, and pass it off as yours, then they are committing fraud. Most stamped drawings are usually also filed with a government agency (part of the approval/application process). This makes it tougher for a company to wilfully commit fraud and get away with it.

"Do not worry about your problems with mathematics, I assure you mine are far greater."
Albert Einstein
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[VoyageofDiscovery]

Ashereng,

"In case of a lawsuit, chances are, your lawyer will subpeona the drawings from your company."

What if the company has purged its files, in Canada I believe 7yrs?

What about the case of companies that don't exist when the lawsuit occurs?

This area has not been addressed in Canada by the respective engineering associations although the Supreme Court of Canada ruled in favour of exemptions to copyright under certain circumstances applied to professionals (ie lawyers and teachers) and researchers.

Regards

VOD

 

[BJC]

There is also the case of you quiting the company. Who dies the inspector or building company call? They will probably call you because they can look up your name and pnone number on the net.
If they call you can tell the inspector you don't work their and can't answer the question. Good luck on that, if you have won the lottery or retired you can risk POin an inspector or building official.
You can call up your previous employer and tell them your getting questions and that you can refer the building official to them or answer them for $150 an hour.
The other scinaro is someone making changes to your design and documenting through the "as built" drawings only.
If your taking drawings you stamped you have some degree of ownership. Your not stealing unless you take the design and reuse it or blantely copy it.

 

[Ashereng]

Yes, these are all valid points.

Haveing said that, if you take drawings that belongs to the company, it is still theft.

Yes, your stamp is on the drawing. Ownership of the drawing, in most employment cases, still rests with the company that you work for. Just because your stamp is on the drawing does not imply ownership.

If someone changes the drawing, then the stamp is nulled. If they then put your stamp on the drawing, then that is fraud.

In case of a problem, who does the inspector or building company call? Probably the companies that either did the original design, construction or has the contract for maintenance. Would they call the EOR? Probably only in a lawsuit. If your car has a problem, do you go back to the dealership or do you call the salesman that sold it to you? Similar analogy.

What happens if the company has purged its files? There is probably still a copy with the governing government agency - they tend to keep lots of things. I am not familiar with the "7 year". I know more than one company that I have worked at that kept their files for much longer. The only "7 year" rule that I know of is for taxes. The government typcially (not legally barred) can go back 7 years to search for / audit / request supporting documents on filings. If they find something, then all bets are off on how far they can go back.

Like I said, in most cases, I have been given drawings, documents, etc. when I have asked. Most of the time, I ask for them after I have left the company - for the next project. I still often get it, the non proprietary ones.

This area has not been addressed in Canada by the respective engineering associations although the Supreme Court of Canada ruled in favour of exemptions to copyright under certain circumstances applied to professionals (ie lawyers and teachers) and researchers.

I am not sure what you are referring to. Please clarify.

"Do not worry about your problems with mathematics, I assure you mine are far greater."
Albert Einstein
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[PatBethea]

From Florida Administrative Code (FAC) 61G15-30.009: Retention of Engineering Documents.
At least one copy of all documents containing the licensee’s signature, seal, date and all related calculations shall be retained by the licensee or the licensee’s employer for a minimum of three years from the date the documents were sealed.

Looks to me like the State of Florida allows an employee to keep a copy of anything they seal, regardless of all else (proprietary info, etc.). But then, I'm no lawyer.

 

[whyun]

The wording says licensee "or" licensee's employer which means that the documents shall be available within three years of stamping. This clause does not grant licensee a right to retain a copy.

 

[Ashereng]

The Professional Engineers Act does not require
that engineers retain engineering documents for
a set length of time. Retention of documents is
therefore done at the discretion of the engineer,
employer, o r c l i e n t . Though documents are
often kept for reference purposes in anticipation
of future work, they are retained mainly
in case of possible legal action against the member
or firm. Documents should be kept for as
long as it is likely that a project might have an
action against it.
A person’s right to exercise legal action for claims
is governed by the Limitations Act, 2002, which
states, “no proceeding shall be commenced in
respect of any claim after the 15th anniversary
of the day on which the act or omission on
which the claim is based took place”.

Generally, copyright automatically belongs to the
author or authors. However, contractual relationships,
including implicit common-law contracts
between employees and employers, affect the ownership
of copyright. Usually, employment contracts
dictate that if a creative work is prepared
a s p a r t of the normal work provided by an
employee for an employer, the employer is the
owner of the copyright. Employee engineers,
either explicitly or implicitly, sign over to their
employer copyright and other intellectual property
rights on all intellectual output, including
inventions, when they enter into employment
relationships.

And here is the link:

http://www.peo.on.ca/publications/Guidelines/UseOfTheProfEngSeal_2005.pdf

From this, it seems that 15 years is the time frame for keeping stamped drawings, documents, etc.

Also from this, it seems that the drawings, as I said earlier, in most employement situations, belong to the employer.

"Do not worry about your problems with mathematics, I assure you mine are far greater."
Albert Einstein
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[PatBethea]

Whyun,

Like I said, I'm no lawyer. But what if the company folds? Who has the legal responsibility then? "They" can't go after the company, now can they? I'd be curious to know if anyone has any information on case law related to engineers trying to keep/obtain copies of drawings they had stamped.

 

[whyun]

I am also no lawyer and I don't have full understanding of the regulations in Florida.

Based solely on the wording of Florida Administrative Code (FAC) 61G15-30.009, stamped drawings shall be kept a minimum of 3 years by either an EOR or the company. If the company folded within three years and the EOR has already left the firm, I suppose the company has a legal responsibility to release the drawings to the EOR.

 

[VoyageofDiscovery]

Here's a link on a recent case in Canada.

http://www.apegnb.ca/documents/Engenuity_Fall06-Winter07.pdf

Page 37

 

[VoyageofDiscovery]

Here the link with regards to the Supreme Court of Canada.

http://www.cbc.ca/canada/story/2004/03/04/lawscoc040304.html

Regards

VOD

 

[civilperson]

Drawings submitted to building departments for review and subsequent issue of a Construction Permit/Occupancy Permit are available to the public, (including the person sealing the drawing). Use of the drawings is covered by copyright laws. In my career, I have borrowed specific details from others submitted plans and reused them in my building design with no fear of lawsuits or retaliation. "Imitation is the sincerest form of flattery." If I was to build an identical building with no changes or modifications, a good attorney might be able to make me divide my fee, but I doubt it.

 

[Ashereng]

I agree also that imitation is the sincerest form of flattery.

I also believe that theft is theft.

Imitation is fine.

Stealing is not.

Nonetheless, the committee understands
that intellectual property generated in the
course of work by an employee engineer
(reports, letters, drawings, design notes) is
the property of the employer, in lieu of other
contractual or conditions-of-employment
arrangements. As well, unauthorized
removal of material unrelated to his assignment
by an employee could not be defended.

It seems that this case study is saying that the drawings belong to the employer (unless other contratual arrangements are made).

The court agreed that the legal material being copied is copyright applicable but that it falls under the exception of "fair dealing."

Continue Article

This exception allows some institutions, like libraries and museums, to infringe on copyrighted material because it is being used for research and study.

This seems to relate to "public" entities. As a corporation and/or individual, I don't think this relates. Hence, the drawing still belongs to the company (unless otherwise contractually accouted for) and if one makes a copy for ones personal use, it is still copyright infringement.

"Do not worry about your problems with mathematics, I assure you mine are far greater."
Albert Einstein
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[VoyageofDiscovery]

Ashereng,

From the apegnb article, I agree that the employer has ownership, but there is another point here that needs to be addressed. Entitlement for the signing professional engineer.

This is a mute point where these drawings etc. become public domain through access to information where applicable (ie government agencies, etc.).

VOD

 

[csd72]

I have actually been asked by prospective employers to bring examples of my previous work to an interview.

 

[Ashereng]

VOD,

Per agegnb, it seems tht entitlement for the EOR is limited to the employment contract - as is my experience.

csd72,

If they want to see an example, I ask my old boss if I can have a copy.



Again, my feeling is theft is theft. If it is not yours, then ask for it.

"Do not worry about your problems with mathematics, I assure you mine are far greater."
Albert Einstein
Have you read FAQ731-376 to make the best use of Eng-Tips Forums?