Are you allowed to retain a copy your own sealed work for your personal records? What about if you change jobs? Can you take a copy of the work you produced with you (assuming it is not proprietary)? Am I not still responsible for the design whether I work for Company A or Company B? What if I want to use portions of that design or detail in another job with another company. It seems that there is nothing new under the sun especially in the civil/structural world, but what is the limit on taking work with you? Thanks in advance.
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Copying sealed PE work for personal records 4
- Thread starter pldpe
- Start date
SylvestreW
Mechanical
But is something theft if you have zero intention of using it in the future for any personal gain? The only reason you have a copy is for personal liability protection.
I used to work for an employer who did not keep copies of stamped drawings. They also used to issue drawings with disclaimers all over them. These disclaimers could easily be covered over by the customer, the drawings copied and submitted to a building department (Copiers are pretty good these days). I felt that this employer risked much and I didn't stamp any of their work.
SylvestreW,
If I come to your house, and take something (like a picture), but I have no intention of using it in the future for any personal gain, is it theft?
Put it another way, how would you answer it on your PE ethics exam?
EddyC,
My answer is based on non-fraud cases. With a really good forger, I am sure they can put my stamp and signature on almost anything. Since my stamp is kept at work (so I can stamp whatever), they don't even have to forge the stamp.
Assuming everyone is not into forgery or fraud, the drawings will usually be there when I need it.
"Do not worry about your problems with mathematics, I assure you mine are far greater."
Albert Einstein
Have you read FAQ731-376 to make the best use of Eng-Tips Forums?
If I come to your house, and take something (like a picture), but I have no intention of using it in the future for any personal gain, is it theft?
Put it another way, how would you answer it on your PE ethics exam?
EddyC,
My answer is based on non-fraud cases. With a really good forger, I am sure they can put my stamp and signature on almost anything. Since my stamp is kept at work (so I can stamp whatever), they don't even have to forge the stamp.
Assuming everyone is not into forgery or fraud, the drawings will usually be there when I need it.
"Do not worry about your problems with mathematics, I assure you mine are far greater."
Albert Einstein
Have you read FAQ731-376 to make the best use of Eng-Tips Forums?
csd72,
Fair enough. That is a better analogy. It is still theft. No different than ripping a CD.
"Do not worry about your problems with mathematics, I assure you mine are far greater."
Albert Einstein
Have you read FAQ731-376 to make the best use of Eng-Tips Forums?
Fair enough. That is a better analogy. It is still theft. No different than ripping a CD.
"Do not worry about your problems with mathematics, I assure you mine are far greater."
Albert Einstein
Have you read FAQ731-376 to make the best use of Eng-Tips Forums?
csd72,
So, in respect to the discussion, how would you answer it on your PE ethics exam?
"Do not worry about your problems with mathematics, I assure you mine are far greater."
Albert Einstein
Have you read FAQ731-376 to make the best use of Eng-Tips Forums?
So, in respect to the discussion, how would you answer it on your PE ethics exam?
"Do not worry about your problems with mathematics, I assure you mine are far greater."
Albert Einstein
Have you read FAQ731-376 to make the best use of Eng-Tips Forums?
csd 72 -Not even close.
The picture I took involved the public interest and safety. I am by law the responsible engineer. I have a responsiblity to the people. The state has required me to do so. If I can't trust or don't feel my former employeer will be in business I will keep the drawings.
If you take that picture on the wall and sold it to a magazine, you might be in trouble because the artist may have retained reporductive rights..
The picture I took involved the public interest and safety. I am by law the responsible engineer. I have a responsiblity to the people. The state has required me to do so. If I can't trust or don't feel my former employeer will be in business I will keep the drawings.
If you take that picture on the wall and sold it to a magazine, you might be in trouble because the artist may have retained reporductive rights..
According to apegnb, if you do keep the drawings (or a copy of the drawings, or similar facismile in whatever form), it seems you are in violation of their policies and findings, unless there is provision in your employment contract otherwise.
It seems that if this is a concern, it may be something you may want to consider inserting into your contract for your next job.
"Do not worry about your problems with mathematics, I assure you mine are far greater."
Albert Einstein
Have you read FAQ731-376 to make the best use of Eng-Tips Forums?
It seems that if this is a concern, it may be something you may want to consider inserting into your contract for your next job.
"Do not worry about your problems with mathematics, I assure you mine are far greater."
Albert Einstein
Have you read FAQ731-376 to make the best use of Eng-Tips Forums?
SylvestreW
Mechanical
Actually, to extend the analogy, it would be as if I were the original artist who created the picture, sold it to you but kept a copy for my personal records to prove I was the one who created it.
In that respect, is it still "theft"?
As for the PE ethics exam, there's absolutely creative way to phrase it as more ethical.
E.g. In the interest of protecting the public, I, the engineer, should be at all time responsible for the works that I create. If I were to carry out work and simply hand reports over, there's the potential for the work to be altered.
I cannot be expected to remember every detail of a report twenty years later. Therefore, to ensure the public is always best served, I feel it is my responsibility to keep a copy of all my work. If, in the future, a failure occured, I would be able to use the original, untampered information to clearly determine if an error was made or if changes were made from when the report left my desk to when the widget was made.
I'm sure most people won't buy that but there's absolutely merit to the idea.
In that respect, is it still "theft"?
As for the PE ethics exam, there's absolutely creative way to phrase it as more ethical.
E.g. In the interest of protecting the public, I, the engineer, should be at all time responsible for the works that I create. If I were to carry out work and simply hand reports over, there's the potential for the work to be altered.
I cannot be expected to remember every detail of a report twenty years later. Therefore, to ensure the public is always best served, I feel it is my responsibility to keep a copy of all my work. If, in the future, a failure occured, I would be able to use the original, untampered information to clearly determine if an error was made or if changes were made from when the report left my desk to when the widget was made.
I'm sure most people won't buy that but there's absolutely merit to the idea.
SylvestreW,
The analogy is more correct if:
I hired you to take a photo portrait of my horse for the newspaper. You kept a copy of the photo (paper, digital, whatever), to prove you took the picture.
In this respect, is it still theft? Answer - Yes.
"Do not worry about your problems with mathematics, I assure you mine are far greater."
Albert Einstein
Have you read FAQ731-376 to make the best use of Eng-Tips Forums?
The analogy is more correct if:
I hired you to take a photo portrait of my horse for the newspaper. You kept a copy of the photo (paper, digital, whatever), to prove you took the picture.
In this respect, is it still theft? Answer - Yes.
"Do not worry about your problems with mathematics, I assure you mine are far greater."
Albert Einstein
Have you read FAQ731-376 to make the best use of Eng-Tips Forums?
Ashereng,
Wrong. Photographers always keep copies and often the negatives (that thing they used before digital cameras). The best of these are usually prominently displayed in their shops or submitted in competition. It is not theft.
I feel that if you are required to stamp it, then you have a legal right to possess a copy. Until a consensus of law-types weighs in, that's the stance I shall assume.
Wrong. Photographers always keep copies and often the negatives (that thing they used before digital cameras). The best of these are usually prominently displayed in their shops or submitted in competition. It is not theft.
I feel that if you are required to stamp it, then you have a legal right to possess a copy. Until a consensus of law-types weighs in, that's the stance I shall assume.
Pat,
Hmmm. I am not aware of that. For the photos that I had a photographer take, I have the negatives/digital files. But, maybe the practice varies?
With regards to a consensus of law types weighing in, I defer to the associations who has juridiction. From both Ontario and NB, if I stamp a drawing, it does not imply I have any legal right to posses it.
"Do not worry about your problems with mathematics, I assure you mine are far greater."
Albert Einstein
Have you read FAQ731-376 to make the best use of Eng-Tips Forums?
Hmmm. I am not aware of that. For the photos that I had a photographer take, I have the negatives/digital files. But, maybe the practice varies?
With regards to a consensus of law types weighing in, I defer to the associations who has juridiction. From both Ontario and NB, if I stamp a drawing, it does not imply I have any legal right to posses it.
"Do not worry about your problems with mathematics, I assure you mine are far greater."
Albert Einstein
Have you read FAQ731-376 to make the best use of Eng-Tips Forums?
VoyageofDiscovery
Structural
Ashereng,
I applaud your convictions however I find it interesting you place this over a professional right. I hope you are able to defend yourself properly when something happens. In these days of litigation, even the company you work for may not be as forthright, lawsuits are a harrowing experience and sadly a reality.
It appears from the apegnb article, that the issue remains unresolved in the eyes of many engineering professionals and they (apegnb) have opted to take a simplified legal response to a complex uncharted area that has possibly disasterous implications to the professional engineer.
Regards
VOD
I applaud your convictions however I find it interesting you place this over a professional right. I hope you are able to defend yourself properly when something happens. In these days of litigation, even the company you work for may not be as forthright, lawsuits are a harrowing experience and sadly a reality.
It appears from the apegnb article, that the issue remains unresolved in the eyes of many engineering professionals and they (apegnb) have opted to take a simplified legal response to a complex uncharted area that has possibly disasterous implications to the professional engineer.
Regards
VOD
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1
- #34
I believe it is responsible to retain a personal copy of anything you stamp. resonsibility for the inegrity of a stamped drawing is a personal responsibility that can not be deligated to the corperation. Thus if you have responsibility for the work you have the right to fair and reasonable access. It clearly is not theft. Theft involves econmic loss. Copying a CD, stealling a painting all invove econmic loss. Keepin a personal record of your work to answer questions in the future does not cause econmic loss. actively using the drawings ou paid to devlop by your first company to jump start work at your new company would be considered econmic loss and possible theft. However, if you tamped the drawings, it probably is not that difficult to recreate from memory and that is not theft.
VOD,
I guess thank you.
I don't feel that I am placing anything over my professional right. The basis of our discussion I believe, rests with wether there is a "professional right" to keep a copy of everthing you stamp. I feel that, as per my professional association's guidelines/case studies/publications, that there is not a professional right to keep a copy of a stamped drawing - unless provided for in the contract. I guess I also don't currently feel a need to keep an illegal copy.
With regards to a company or another engineer changing a stamped drawing (and keeping the original stamp on the drawing), I haven't come across that. Doing something like that is illegal, unethical, and dangerous. I guess I am fortuante, or lucky. In a situation like that, I am not too sure if having a copy would serve me much more than not having a copy. The other party would just claim that the copy I have is outdated, and I would have to fight just as hard in both cases.
To summarise everthing, I guess we all need to proceed as our conscience advise. I appreciate the discussion - it was useful.
"Do not worry about your problems with mathematics, I assure you mine are far greater."
Albert Einstein
Have you read FAQ731-376 to make the best use of Eng-Tips Forums?
I guess thank you.
I don't feel that I am placing anything over my professional right. The basis of our discussion I believe, rests with wether there is a "professional right" to keep a copy of everthing you stamp. I feel that, as per my professional association's guidelines/case studies/publications, that there is not a professional right to keep a copy of a stamped drawing - unless provided for in the contract. I guess I also don't currently feel a need to keep an illegal copy.
With regards to a company or another engineer changing a stamped drawing (and keeping the original stamp on the drawing), I haven't come across that. Doing something like that is illegal, unethical, and dangerous. I guess I am fortuante, or lucky. In a situation like that, I am not too sure if having a copy would serve me much more than not having a copy. The other party would just claim that the copy I have is outdated, and I would have to fight just as hard in both cases.
To summarise everthing, I guess we all need to proceed as our conscience advise. I appreciate the discussion - it was useful.
"Do not worry about your problems with mathematics, I assure you mine are far greater."
Albert Einstein
Have you read FAQ731-376 to make the best use of Eng-Tips Forums?
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