Corporate Espionage 1

[BubbaJ]

Is it ethical to request one of your staff members to contact another engineering firm (in the same field)under the false pretenses that they are a "potential client" (not the firm they are working for) in an effort to collect their marketing material?

I can only assume their next step would be to request a proposal for a bogus project to evaluate my fee structures.

In this particular case, the individual contacted me via email and indicated they worked for a "local contractor" and had projects coming up and were looking for firms to present the owner. Could I send marketing material, brochures and company information to the following address? (Which turned out to be the individual's home address.)

In the current market, it all sounded a bit too good to be true. Thanks to the beauty of the internet, I was able to make the connection between the requester and the competing firm before any information was exchanged.

 

[hokie66]

It is never ethical to lie or to ask someone else to lie for you. In addition, it is an abuse of position to put a staff member in this predicament.

What do you do about it? Personally, I would just get the head man at the other office on the phone and let him know what you think of his tactics. Don't expect to be placed on his Christmas card list.

 

[photoengineer]

Well, I'm not sure this is an ethical question as much of a legal question. It's not against any laws that I know of.

The problem with asking whether it is ethical is that we all don't subscribe to the same ethics, and ethics aren't bound by law.

So what you see as unethical may be perceived as perfectly ok by them.

I think the bottom line is you can choose who you do business with and which potential clients you respond to. I'd simply ignore the request rather than try to figure out if what they are doing fits your ethical values.

Cedar Bluff Engineering

http://cedarbluffengineering.webs.com

 

[photoengineer]

Oh, and it's not corporate espionage by the way.

Cedar Bluff Engineering

http://cedarbluffengineering.webs.com

 

[MacGyverS2000]

If the gentleman accepted a job with your company in an effort to pass info back to his current employer, THAT would be corporate espionage.

An ex-gf worked in management for a very large firm that owned condos, apartment complexes, etc. It is common practice (as in, once a month) to call up the other local complexes and pretend to be a potential renter, asking for their current pricing/deals (they call it "being shopped"). It's absolutely pathetic how transparent it is, and every time someone hangs up the phone with a "shopper" they know they've been shopped. Why they all don't just break down and say "I'm so-and-so from complex 'X'... can you tell me what your current pricing/deals are?". Every single one does it,it's no secret, yet they can't bring themselves to just be open about it. No clue...


Dan - Owner

http://www.Hi-TecDesigns.com

 

[Ron]

BubbaJ...what you described happens all the time, unfortunately. I've seen marketing types in larger companies do it.

Is it ethical. NO! It's deceitful and disengenuous.

photoengineer...it's clearly an ethical issue. All engineers subscribe to some level of ethical practice, stated or unstated. It's basic to the concept and tenets of engineering. Without it, there would be no confidence in engineering as a profession. If you are a member of any of the engineering organizations, adherence to its code of ethics is usually required for membership.

For the licensed group (no, let's not make this a licensing discussion), most state laws weave the concept of ethical practice into statutory language...an ethical breach can also become a legal breach.

Yes, different cultures interpret ethical considerations in different ways. What is perceived as an ethical breach in one society, might not be considered so in another; however, engineering is one of those "truth" and superlative professions...analyses and designs strive to reach a level of "truth"; whether that "truth" is the right answer, the best effort to solve, the most expedient yet protective design, or some other high reaching goal. It is not the goal of an engineer to deceive, to subvert, to hide problems, to take from others without credit unless it is public domain...and on and on. I know of no culture that overtly condones and encourages its engineers or others to lie or deceive. Maybe I'm naive.

 

[patprimmer]

Where I come from, and only in my unqualified opinion, it is not at a level that could be successfully prosecuted, on a strict definition, fraud is theft by deception, so claiming to be a customer when you are in fact a competitor is clearly deception. Using that deception to gain information of value is theft.

Would you need to ask is fraudulent conduct ethical? whether or not it is defined by law or by an associations or licensing boards codes, to my mind any deliberate deception for gain is clearly unethical y the simple laws of human decency.

The shopping example mentioned by Dan is more complex as to agree to exchange prices could be classed as collusion to fix prices.

Regards
Pat
See FAQ731-376 for tips on use of eng-tips by professional engineers &

http://eng-tips.com/market.cfm

for site rules

 

[JAE]

Here's a couple of sections of some various state's guidelines from around my neck of the woods:

b. Individual professional conduct.
The following guidelines regarding illegal or unethical individual professional conduct shall apply:
(1) Licensees shall not use association with
nonengineers, corporations or partnerships
as “cloaks” for unethical acts.

and another state:

5.5.4 The architect or professional engineer shall not engage in conduct involving fraud or wanton disregard of
the rights of others.


These don't appear to directly relate to your situation, but calling someone on the phone and fraudulantly mis-representing the identification of the caller is pretty low.

 

[BubbaJ]

Thank you all for your input.

And yes, I do understand that my situation is not "corporate espionage", but isn't it a catchier title than "competitors who call you up claiming to be a client so they can get their hands on your marketing material"?

I will have to give this more thought as I am certain that the code of ethics in my state has a clause similar to the one JAE posted and the question now is, do I pursue this apparent violation with our licensing board or not?

As always, valuable insights from the Eng-tips community.

 

[JAE]

BubbaJ,
There's nothing wrong with bringing this to the attention of the state board and letting them judge whether it is appropriate or not. At the very least, they could possibly just reprimand them and that may help that individual do the right thing in the future.

 

[photoengineer]

If they were trying to get your proprietary information it'd be one thing. However, I cannot fathom anyone would consider getting ahold of your marketing materials as theft, because by definition, you make them freely available to (real) potential customers. There is nothing in them that is confidential, secret, or proprietary.

I cannot fathom that any state board would get mad at somebody who sent in a letter requesting a company brochure be sent to their home address. The fact that they may not have actually had clients is a questionable tactic but variations of that theme are used in countless business transactions.

We all get tons of e-mail from people in Nigeria asking for money, credit cards, social security information, etc. None of these is legal. But we simply delete and ignore. I recommend the same for you as well. Delete and ignore.

Cedar Bluff Engineering

http://cedarbluffengineering.webs.com

 

[photoengineer]

Wait a minute....how do you know that the employee did this at the request of the company?

Cedar Bluff Engineering

http://cedarbluffengineering.webs.com

 

[hokie66]

photoengineer,
Marketing materials are produced at substantial cost. As you said, they are made freely available to potential customers, with the choice of material to be provided still in the hands of the engineering firm. A request for brochures, etc. by deception is in my opinion a low act, and if the deception is participated in by an engineer, it is unethical.

 

[rowingengineer]

My bet would be that the HR depart decided it was a good idea, not the engineer in charge. Thus it could all be a storm in a tea cup.

Arguing with an engineer is like wrestling with a pig in mud. After a while you realize that they like it

 

[photoengineer]

I'm not defending lying or deceitful. However, the original poster was just that by titling the thread "corporate espionage" when he knew (and later admitted) that it really wasn't corporate espionage. He said he did it to catch our attention. That right there was an act of deceipt.


Cedar Bluff Engineering

http://cedarbluffengineering.webs.com

 

[BubbaJ]

Photoengineer - I apologize for not thoroughly researching the definition of "corporate espionage" prior to using it as the title for the post and for subsequently trying to make a joke about it.

On the subject of whether or not the person was directed to send the email, obviously that would be very difficult if not impossible to prove. However, in this particular instance, the HR Department consists only of the person who sent the email and the entire office has a total of 4 people.

 

[photoengineer]

It doesn't sound like a licensed professional engineer did anything wrong. The person that did wrong was the HR department, and the state licensing board only has authority over licensed engineers. You'd have to show that the engineer made an unethical request.

The easiest way of handling it is to write back and say, I understand you work for a firm that is in the same line of business as mine. I'm puzzled why you are requesting information from me when the firm that you work for is more than capable of doing the type of work that you need. Is there something that I could assist your firm with?

Or ignore it like you do those Nigerian scammers.

Cedar Bluff Engineering

http://cedarbluffengineering.webs.com

 

[stevenal]

http://www.nspe.org/Ethics/CodeofEthics/index.html

See I5, II5, III1, III6.

Many states encode similar ethical codes into law. Licensing boards don't just regulate individual engineers, they regulate engineering firms.

 

[photoengineer]

I really don't think the board of engineers could reprimand the professional engineer who is the engineer of record at a company where someone in the HR department asks for material to be sent to his/her home address.

Cedar Bluff Engineering

http://cedarbluffengineering.webs.com

 

[Eleceng01]

IMHO - I would contact the state PE board about filling a complaint - their firm is licensed with them, so I am sure they will have something to say about their ethics (or lack there of). It doesn't matter that it was the HR person, the firm has responsibilities per the state licensing.