Cost of Drafting Services 2

[dpa]

So far I have always done my own drafting (ACAD 2004) but I wondered how common it is for engineers to use a drafting service and what kind of prices you pay. Is it by the hour (risky perhaps) or by the sheet? Do you get a fixed price or just an estimate? Is this something you do frequently or only when completely swamped with work? Does using a draftsman help you save your clients money? Appreciate any insights.

Thanks
DPA

 

[pablo02]

We contracted drafting services out after we retired/relocated/reassigned many of our drafting technicians during a merger... we paid around $40/hr plus mileage, expenses...

This was about 6 years ago and work was for internal use only... I am assuming that the new plant management has let the contract expire without renewal...

I now work for a small engineering company -- all of the prints done in our department are done by us (no drafters or drafting technicians) -- not sure that in our circumstances we would save money using them...

 

[dpa]

Thanks Pablo02. I was kind of thinking that myself but had no actual experience to base it on.

DPA

 

[pablo02]

dpa -- I should explain out that our piping department uses both in house drafters and contract drafters... my area isn't as intense as the piping and that's the reason we do it ourselves...

 

[gibfrog]

I have used contract drafting when I am swamped and it is problematic. I pay by the hour and the drafters only want to rack up hours, disregrad my instructions and then expect me to pay for useless work. I pay and then look elsewhere.

I am trying to train one, but it is a slow process.

The problem is the lack of professionalism in the drafters I use. They telecommute and do not ask when questions when they should.

Ofcourse I could hire someone for less full time or train a recent engineering graduate but I am not sure the I would earn enough more to justify the hassle.





Clifford H Laubstein
FL PE 58662

 

[ndpw]

I'm an EIT and do some drafting on the side for an engineer and charge about $100 for a 24x36 septic system/plot plan. This includes digitizing, adding notes and details and sometimes filling in missing grading, dimensions, etc. This rate is based on lots say 1-2 acres. Larger lots I may charge a little more due to additional digitizing required. If electronic base mapping is available I may charge a little less. I think this is a fair rate schedule in that it provides the engineer with a known price and gives me incentive to get it done quickly. Sometimes I make $30-40 per hour, other times $15-20 per hour. I usually will do minor revision for free, but if he has made a design error that causes me an hour or more of work, I may charge a little. This is where it helps being an engineer myself.

Bottom line... the best way to work with a draftsman is to agree to a lump sum price. This method may require slightly more time up front, but seems to be well worth it in the long run. Good luck.... I know a good draftsman if you need one.

 

[dpa]

Thanks gibfrog and ndpw. It looks like using a draftsman may be largely a matter of luck. Maybe after a few bad experiences a guy might know what to look for. Everyone's answers have been enlightening. $100 sounds like a pretty good bargain.

Thanks,
DPA

 

[jheidt2543]

I hire out all my CAD drafting. The two firms I use are both fast and accurate and they have many years of experiance. I usually try to settle on a "Not to Exceed" price for the drafting and both firms charge $35/hr. One firm is drafting only and they do work for a number of architects, engineers and builders in the area. The other firm is an architectural firm I work with and when they are slow I try to send them some of my work to keep their CAD draftsman working.

If I have to estimate drafting costs for a project without input from the drafting firm, I base it on my past experiance with them and the cost of past projects. I estimate the cost two ways. First, how many days I think it will take to draft the job at $35 x 8 = $280/day/draftsman. Secondly, I think through how many pages I expect in the drawing set at $500 - $750 per page, depending on complexity. I then use a Low-High range in working out my final project budget for the job.

Rates depend a lot on where you are and how busy the firms might be and on complexity of the work.

 

[dpa]

Thanks jheidt2543,

I have noticed in looking over other forums that you have a lot of good sound advice with details that are useful and specific and this one is no exception. Glad you saw this one. Your estimating technique will come in very handy.

Thanks,
DPA

 

[jheidt2543]

dpa,

Thanks for the nice comment. The nice thing about these forums is that you get to hear how others address the same problems you are wrestling with. The system I outlined about works for me, but then for a larger firm or larger projects, some other method might work better. It is just one idea to consider.

 

[BRIS]

In the past we have contracted out drafting in UK at £250 (GBP) per sheet ( for rebar detailing). We are now moving our contracted out drafting to India for a third of the UK price.

 

[LHA]

My attitude is that any engineer you hire should be fluent in AutoCAD, and my experience has been that every engineer under 35 is. Perhaps you should consider hiring an EIT and training him/her. This will get you a drafter who, if a recent grad, will probably know more about CAD than you AND as much as most Drafting Subcontractors). This will also get you a person in-house who can instantly help you with design legwork.

Whether subbing it out or training a drafter in-house, I feel in this day of CAD, the value added by a person who just draws pictures without design input/ability to logically check work, is very, very little. This has been my experience with temp and sub drafters; they will draw all your markups perfectly, even if you have made a careless or conceptual error. If you can't afford an EIT, I should add that the two most valuable and capable drafters in my are simply high school grads. I know if they draft something they have not simply copied a drawing. The design makes sense (plan, profile, details and tables all coincide with design calcs). This is something which (again, only from my experience) you will never get from an outside drafting sub.

 

[BigH]

Bris - as they say in Indonesia, hati hati (beware). Are you hiring them for just "drafting" or design drafting??

It seems a lot like you are all going to getting design/drafting services. This is okay for some, but do you want your experienced staff sitting in front of a board - oops, computer screen, making it just right? or do you want him doing the hard conceptual work and ensuring that various components match. I've recently seen a lot of great looking drawings, but kerbside offset of the bridge is at 7m from centreline of dual carriageway but the carriageway is at 2.5m offset!! Now, if you have a "structural" drafter do the bridge and a "road" drafter doing the road - well, . . . Details, Details, Details - and these can only be done by the guys who know the "big" picture - and so I think today . . . . .

 

[jheidt2543]

I have to agree with BigH. I've seen some really nice looking CAD drawings that just didn't convey the information required. I've recently had the opportunity to see some of the old hand lettered, ink on linen drawings from the 1900 - 1910 years. Yes, it was a different time and the world was at a slower pace, BUT those drawings conveyed information - all of it - to the field. It would be great training for any CAD drafter to look at some of the old drawings, the details and layout schemes. They should be exposed to more than one way of drawing. In fact the draftsmen should be getting into the field on the projects they draw, just to see what the physical product looks like in person.

Personally, I've always thought the real advantage to CAD was the use of standard, cut & paste details and the speed in making changes. You still have to design in the same, thoughtful way.

That's my nickel!

 

[GeoPaveTraffic]

I have to agree with BigH and jheidt2543, as an owner’s representative, I see a lot of very bad drawings done on CAD. Some examples: a road curb drawn through a power pole (no note to relocate the pole), silt fence shown on the up hill side of an excavation, lettering and notes placed on top of other lettering and notes, etc. I know that layers are a wonderful thing, but someone, sometime must look at the finished product and confirm that all of the information is shown and that you can read it.

Sorry all, but this happens to be a sore subject with me at the moment.

To all, please keep in mind that if you are just paying a person to put lines on a page, then that is all you are likely to get. On the other hand, if you expect a person to interpret what the design has sketched and to detail that design, and put it on the page; then you need to pay that person for the difference. A lower price per page or per hours does NOT always mean a lower cost project.

 

[BigH]

My friend jheidt2543 - another history buff, eh? Years ago I was doing research on the Ogden Point Piers in Victoria British Columbia and I checked all sorts of the Engineering Journals of the time - Institue of Engineers Canada (name may be wrong) - but the journals from 1910-1920,etc had full drawing pullouts in them - damn they were beautiful - I would have loved to lifted a couple of hydro-power dam drawings and walked out - didn't, but . . .

Our company always did hand lettering - at least in the era I enjoyed - why? IT HAS SOUL! This may not mean much to some, but the CAD Drawings don't have the same feel - the same love and attention - you can't see the blood (read that eraser blotches) on a CAD drawing than on an old fashioned hand lettered one. Call me an ol' codger but I love soulful drawings!!

CAD is good if you've a lot of changes to make - so why not use Architectural fonts??????

 

[jheidt2543]

Ah, the days when engineers wore "engineer boots" in the field and in the office!

Yes, I too have often been tempeted to purloin one of the old hand lettered, ink on linen drawings. I seen a few I would have loved to have framed as artwork. But, alas, Sr. Mary Ann would have rolled over in her grave.

I have a set of engineering text books by Hool and Kinne that have the fold out design drawings included with them. They actually come in handy when dealing with some of these old mill style buildings. The details are very similar.

I wouldn't be too quick to give up on CAD however, just, as you say, make it better with more details, more dimension strings that actually add up across the page and use the fonts that look like hand lettering.

 

[BRIS]

I feel old - As a young trainee engineer I started on the drawing board drawing in ink on linen - Yes you made sure of the engineering and made sure the drawing conveyed as much information as possible. If you got it wrong it was difficult to put right. If you got it totally wrong you could always wash out the linen and use it for a duster.

To BigH

I hate to say this but with the demise of technician qualifications in UK drafting standards have fallen to a very poor level. Many of the people driving the CAD machines have no practical experience and I am often find that I am working with draftsmen who can't read a drawing. Standards in the third world are now overtaking the UK.

Brian

 

[BigH]

We had some wonderful draftsmen at our geotechnical office in Toronto - many many years drawing some great works. This one guy was also "experienced" at watercolouring stratigraphic sections!

One other thing on drawings to back up GeoPaveTraffic's comments - I, too, have seen drawings where a new bridge offset didn't match the incoming road's offset from centerline - where the bridge's abutment is 2m higher than its existing twin and there is only a 8m median! - where the road kerbs don't line up with the structural parapet wall. All in the name of keeping the "road" design team separate from the "structure" team.

Best to all for the SuperBowl Party! Pats or Panthers??? Probably Pats - they seem to have the knack and streak this year!

 

[22004]

25 FEBRUARY 2004

SUBJECT: SORRY DRAFTSMEN

REFERENCE;

EDUCATION: INDUSTRIAL ARTS ENGINEERING

TITLES: DETAILER, LAYOUT, DESIGNER, CHIEF DRAFTSMEN, CHIEF ENGINEER

MEDIA: INDIA INK ON LINED, INDIA INK ON VELLUM, CARBON PENCIL ON VELLUM,

CARBON PENCIL ON MOLAR, INDIA INK ON MOLAR, MOLAR PENCIL ON MOLAR,

MACAD (MCDONALD AIRCRAFT) AUTO CAD, MAC DRAFT (APPLE)


OBSERVATIONS:

1.0 ALL RESPONDS DID NOT SHOW AN ENGINEER’S EDUCATION AND PROFESSIONAL THINKING.

2.0 EVERY HORROR STORY WAS NOTED.

3.0 YOU ALL HAVE BEEN TRAINED TO........

3.1 STATE THE PROBLEM

3.2 STATE KNOWN ITEMS CAUSING THE PROBLEM

3.3 REVISE, ELIMINATE OR CREATE A SOLUTION IN RELATION TO CAUSING ELEMENTS

4.0 THE PROBLEM YOU ALL ADDRESSED HAVE BEEN AROUND FOR YEARS.

4.1 ME ENGINEER

YOU DRAFTSMEN.

4.2 ANY BODY CAN MAKE A DRAWING.

4.3 YOU PAY FOR WHAT YOU GET.

4.4 WHEN THE CAD EQUIPMENT CAME ALONG THE FOLLOWING BECAME THE GOSPEL

4.4.1 ANYONE CAN LEARN TO USE CAD AND BE PROFICIENT IN 8 WEEKS.

4.4.1.1 TRUE STATEMENT. BUT.....THAT MEANS JUST WHAT IT SAYS. HOW TO TURN IT ON AND USE IT.



5.1 ONE CAN NOT LEARN WHAT DRAFTING IS AND HOW TO IT ON CAD. IT TAKES A MINIMUM OF ONE (1) YEAR OF SCHOOLING.

5.2 IF ONE DOES NOT KNOWN HOW TO BUILD WHAT EVER THE DRAWING IS SUPPOSE TO TELL, THEN HOW CAN YOU MAKE THE LINES, CICLRES, ARCHS, NOTES ETC. TO TELL THE STORY.

5.3 THE ENGINEERS MUST GO BACK TO THE SCHOOLS AND TELL THEM, THEY CAN NOT AFFORD TO NOT SPEND THE MONEY IN TEACHING HOW THINGS ARE MADE OR BUILT. ALL THE SCIENCE AND MATH IN CONJUNCTION WITH THE HOW TO ONLY RESULTS IN PRODUCTS. ONE CAN NOT LIVE WITHOUT THE OTHER.

5.4 NOT ONE YOU, KNEW IT ALL WHEN YOU ENTERED PROFESSIONAL PRACTICE, SOME ONE POISHED YOU.

5.5 IT IS GOING TO COST YOU, BUT YOU MUST FIGURE IT INTO YOUR COST TO TRAIN THE DRAFTSMEN.


6.0 COULD GO ON, BUT NOW YOU ALL ARE SAYING THIS OLD GOAT IS LIVING IN A DREAM WORLD. WE CAN NOT AFFORD IT OR HAVE THE TIME.



CLEARY*