Counter Offer OK or Out of Line? 3

[SuperSalad]

Quick synopsis:
- I've been working very unhappily in my current job for about 8 years, in an R&D chemist role, not engineering.
- This was my first job after graduating with my BS in chemical engineering.
- I've just received an offer for a new job at another company in an engineering role.
- The commute for the new position would be about 15 minutes less and less stressful overall
- The potential new company seems very much more my style and a vastly better work culture

The current offer is:
- Slightly more money (about 4.5% increase)
- A loss of 1.5% match in retirement (going from 5% to 3.5% 401K match or about $3500 with my current contribution rate).
- I'll be losing 1 weeks vacation and a few days of sick time (going from 3 weeks vacation and 2 weeks sick-time to 2 weeks vacation and 1 week sick-time)
- I'm waiting for a reply about this, but I'm also pretty sure I'll be losing a $1000 HSA match I currently have.

My questions for those for seasoned offer receivers:

Would I be out of line asking for an additional $5000 in salary to make up for the loss of 401K match, HSA match, and vacation days?

Would it come across as me having entitlement issues for not wanting to give up perks I already have so readily? Or is it normal to make concessions like this for a positive career move?

I feel like its one of those "Can't hurt to ask" situations and if I don't I'll regret not starting at a better baseline. I just don't want to start off on the wrong foot, they seem to like me a lot and I certainly like them from what I've seen throughout the interview process.

What say the masses?

Andrew H.

http://www.mototribology.com

 

[wroggent]

I'd ask for more than that. If you lasted 8 years you can wait a bit longer for a better offer if this one falls through.

 

[IRstuff]

It's not a straightforward lateral move, since you've admittedly not been doing what you're now being offered. I don't know how your current compensation compares against a new grad, but that's something to consider.

I would suggest that you ask for the 401K match, HSA, and vacation, rather than the additional money. The bennies are often easier to deal with, as they're not the direct compensation, which shows up the direct budget.

TTFN (ta ta for now)
I can do absolutely anything. I'm an expert!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BKorP55Aqvg

faq731-376 forum1529 Entire Forum list

http://www.eng-tips.com/forumlist.cfm

 

[CWB1]

Compensation should be based upon your abilities in relation to your peers, nothing more. If you haven't already then I'd recommend reading a few of your niche's professional societies' salary surveys to see where you currently rank, naturally keeping in mind the cost of living in your area relative to the rest of the country. In NJ for example I'd expect the average engineer to be well within the top 10% of salaries for their years experience. I cant comment as to your niche, but in mine, having never been in an engineering role you'd likely be treated the same as any junior engineer fresh out of college with zero or very little engineering experience and the compensation to match.

I make it a rule to not haggle salary but rather benefits, relocation, etc to avoid seeming greedy, but admittedly I dont entertain offers unless they include the salary I want. Personally I view haggling over an extra week of vacation as trivial, nitpicking a couple grand salary OTOH is somewhere between annoying and greedy. Salary aside, unless their offer is significantly below average for your location and experience then I'd see negotiating even benefits as difficult for you. You effectively have five weeks of vacation currently and they're offering four, the norm for <10 years with a company is 2-3 with a max of 4-5 achievable after ~20 years with that specific employer. I also suspect your math is off on the $3500/1.5% annual 401k match loss unless your salary is ~$230k, more likely ~$1500.

 

[SuperSalad]

CWB1
Yes, you are right about the 401K math, I was using the total of the current match instead of the difference. The difference is more like $1000 less than current, after applying the higher salary and the lower rate.

I'm going to ask a few questions to clarify if the vacation days carry over from one year tot he next or are use-it-or-lose-it. If they carry over or get paid out for unused time, that would make it more appealing for sure.

I am honestly fine with the offered salary and benefits. I'm just so used to hearing people complain about not asking for enough initially and reading "job seeker" articles warning to always negotiate that I'm just overthinking it and shouldn't try getting greedy. I was very upfront with my experience and capabilities and they were very upfront with what they were expecting. It all seemed to jive so here I am now. The salary offer is pretty much right at the average for a plant engineer/production engineer position here in NJ.

The potential new employer is apparently very good at recognizing and rewarding good work according to the 6 people I spoke with during the interview process. So I kind of feel like even if I leave anything on the table now, it'll all work out as long as I get the job done and do it well.

I suppose I'm just nervous finally getting an offer to do what I want, and an opportunity to get out of the toxic culture I've been in at my current job. I just don't want to mess it up or start off on the wrong foot. Thank you all for your insights.


Andrew H.

http://www.mototribology.com

 

[PEDARRIN2]

There is also the non monetary emotional aspect. You said you were working "very unhappily". You would be amazed at how a little less $$$ is overcome by a lot less stress/discontent. And maybe some of the slightly more compensation can be put toward (not tax free though) the retirement and HSA.

 

[SuperSalad]

I just got some feedback from the HR person on some questions.

1. I'd get my third week of vacation after 1 year there
2. They offer a 75% deductible reimbursement with an HRA and a $500 contribution to an FSA.
3. With the smallish increase the 1.5% loss to the 401K match is pretty inconsequential.

I'm on cloud 9 right now with the prospect of leaving here and handing in my resignation.



Andrew H.

http://www.mototribology.com

 

[tygerdawg]

Whatever they promise to get you to accept their offer, make sure the details are spelled out explicitly on the piece of paper before you sign it.

TygerDawg
Blue Technik LLC
Virtuoso Robotics Engineering

http://www.bluetechnik.com

 

[dik]

Good Luck with your future employer...

Dik

 

[MacGyverS2000]

Whatever they promise to get you to accept their offer, make sure the details are spelled out explicitly on the piece of paper before you sign it.

Seconded. I made that mistake once in my haste to get out of my then-current position. I got everything promised after some protracted discussion, but it was a worrying couple of months.

Dan - Owner

http://www.Hi-TecDesigns.com

 

[moltenmetal]

Best of luck in your new role. I can tell you that even if you weren't able to address the minor jumping-ship costs, getting out of a job you dislike is worth FAR more than the small amounts of money you're talking about.

 

[MikeHalloran]

Regarding your departure, your resignation letter should take the following form:

<date>
I, <name>, hereby resign as <title>, effective <date>.
<signature>

DO NOT include anything else.
If you say anything defamatory, obviously that can bite you.
Less obviously, if you try to be nice, that can bite you too,
e.g. by offending people whom you fail to mention,
e.g. by offending people whom you do mention.

Resist any attempt at conducting an 'exit interview'.
You have nothing to gain from it, and anything you do say will be taken out of context,
so if you must attend, e.g. to get your last paycheck, say nothing at all.



Mike Halloran
Pembroke Pines, FL, USA

 

[ornerynorsk]

Good suggestion from Mike. Don't attend an exit interview at all. It is not legal to hold salary hostage for any such reason, nor to unreasonably delay it. Make sure company property in your care has been turned in and a signed paper receipt for same is in your pocket when you leave. Good luck in the new venture!

It is better to have enough ideas for some of them to be wrong, than to be always right by having no ideas at all.

 

[Maui]

Don't be surprised if they didn't share all of the important details about what will be expected of you during the interview process. They usually leave out or gloss over the aspects of the job that will be less appealing to you. For example, there are always unfinished projects that are left behind by the previous employee who worked in that role, and they are usually the first things that get dropped in your lap. There is a reason why they were not completed. The first month may feel like you are drinking from a fire hose, but take it in stride. If this gets you out of a truly toxic environment that will more than make up for everything else that may not appeal to you.

Good luck in your new role.

 

[Sparweb]

Resist any attempt at conducting an 'exit interview'. You have nothing to gain from it, and anything you do say will be taken out of context, so if you must attend, e.g. to get your last paycheck, say nothing at all.

It's not so cut and dried. If your departure isn't raising much animosity, then you may have some credibility left (especially if the HR people can justify it in their minds as better pay rather than any of the offensive stuff they've probably done). You certainly have HR's attention for a while. An exit interview can be an opportunity to do a favour for a worthy colleague that you respect. I had that opportunity and it worked out very well for both of us.

No one believes the theory except the one who developed it. Everyone believes the experiment except the one who ran it.
STF

 

[SuperSalad]

Thanks all for the additional feedback.

I've been waffling over the exit interview prospect for a while. On one hand, I have the thought "There were 8 years I was more than happy to give my opinions, I'm not about to give it to you now."

The other thought I have is just as SparWeb said. I've got a decent amount of colleagues I am leaving behind who are stuck in similar situations. Maybe, just maybe I could get them to see the light about how the company is treating people and things might improve after I leave for them. It would be beyond shocking though if that did the trick. They know exactly how they treat people and they know how discontent everyone is. It's just........toxic and the shareholders are the one and only thing they are concerned with.

So I think I am going to just wing it that day and make the decision as it comes. I'm currently leaning toward not giving the exit interview though.

Andrew H.

http://www.mototribology.com

 

[SuperSalad]

Well I did the interview. My HR rep (whom I like and has always been helpful) came by with a simple form. She asked if I would fill it out, and I agreed.

I kept it honest and didn't really pull any punches (though I did modify the language of my internal dialogue )

I told them what steps could be taken for improvement and tried my best to convey treating employees with more respect would go a long way for them and pretty much left it at that.

Just a few more days now until the final walk out.

Andrew H.

http://www.mototribology.com

 

[CWB1]

My rule of thumb in those situations is simply to avoid burning any bridges. I treat the interview like any other office task - with tact, carefully verbalizing minor issues while trying to avoid stirring the pot. You never know when a former employer or colleague will become a customer, supplier, or reference.

 

[SuperSalad]

CWB1,
I think I successfully navigated that path and kept it all appropriate.

Andrew H.

http://www.mototribology.com